Origins of the Book of Mormon

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_Trevor
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Re: Parity

Post by _Trevor »

Doctor Steuss wrote:I hope to one day see it so clearly (whether on the side of the believer, or the non-believer). I see too much of a mixture of variations of ANE customs, and 19th century American Protestantism to make a clear-cut judgment call as of yet.


And where do you find evidence of these ANE customs in ancient America outside of the Book of Mormon?
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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Re fortifications: (from Vogel's Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon)

Reports of Central American ruins were also available. A year after Parish authored his book, a book by famous traveler Alexander von Humboldt, Political Essay on the Kingdom of New Spain, appeared simultaneously in London and New York. Humboldt detailed the dimensions of the pyramids of the sun and moon at Teotihuacan, Mexico, as well as other pyramids in Central America, including the pyramid of Cholula. He believed the pyramids dated to the eighth or ninth century A.D. but reported that others held that they were the work of the Olmecs, making them "still more ancient." He also described the "military entrenchment" of Xochicalco:

It is an insulated hill of 117 metres elevation, surrounded with ditches or trenches, and divided by the hand of man into five terraces covered with masonry. The whole forms a truncated pyramid, of which the four faces are exactly laid down according to the four cardinal points. ... The platform of this extraordinary monument contains more than 9000 square metres, and exhibits the ruins of a small square ediface, which undoubtedly served for a last retreat to the besieged.(6)
Ethan Smith later included Humboldt's description of the pyramid of Cholula in his book View of the Hebrews.(7)
Antonio del Rio's 1822 book, Description of the Ruins of an Ancient City, Discovered Near Palenque, in the Kingdom of Guatemala, was another important early source of information about Central America.(8) Published in London, Rio's book was cited two years later in The History of the State of New York, by John Yates and Joseph Moulton.(9) In addition, Mark Beaufoy, William Bullock, Domingo Juarros, and John Ranking, all publishing books in London during the 1820s, knew of Rio's book and the Palenque ruins.(10)

Beaufoy also described the pyramids at Teotihuacan, Cholula, and other locations in Central America.(11) Bullock reported that the Mexican antiquities included "the remains of pyramids, castles, fortifications, temples, bridges, houses, ... [and] towers ... seven stories high."(12) Juarros described "well defended cities," "magnificent palaces," "fortresses constructed with ... much art," "buildings of pure ostentation and grandeur," and "the remains of a magnificent building ... constructed of hewn stone."(13) In 1823 Tennessean John Haywood described Mexican temples, towers, and roads, including an account of a ruin found deep in the jungle.(14) Six years later the American Monthly Magazine (Boston) published a detailed description of South, Central, and North American antiquities. According to the periodical, one palace found in Mexico City had "twenty doors of entrance, and one hundred rooms," and many "spacious temples and palaces for the nobility" were found in Peru.(15)

Surprisingly detailed, if not completely accurate, accounts of Central and South American ruins were thus more or less readily available to nineteenth-century Americans. Perhaps more significant, however, were the reports of impressive antiquities closer to home. The eastern portion of North America was dotted with hundreds of artificial earthen mounds, or tumuli as they were often called. The Reverend Thaddeus Mason Harris, who toured the region northwest of the Allegheny Mountains in 1803, wrote:

The vast mounds and walls of earth, discovered in various parts of this western region have excited the astonishment of all who have seen or heard of them. ... These works are scattered over the whole face of the country. You cannot ride twenty miles in any direction without finding some of the mounds, or vestages of the ramparts.(16)

Ethan Smith reported more than 3,000 tumuli along the Ohio River alone. Based on the number of mounds in eastern North America, one observer, Henry Brackenridge, estimated "that there were 5,000 cities at once full of people. ... I am perfectly satisfied," he wrote, "that cities similar to those of ancient Mexico, of several hundred thousand souls ... have existed in this country."(17)

Three general types of mounds were described: temple or altar mounds, believed to have been erected for worship, either as altars or as platforms for temples which had long since deteriorated; burial mounds, believed to contain the bodies of mound builders who had been slain in a terrible battle; and fortification mounds, believed to have been built by mound builders in defense against attack by savages.

On 19 February 1823 western New York's Palmyra Herald opined that "many of these fortifications were not forts, but religious temples, or places of public worship."(18) Not unexpectedly, Ethan Smith was also interested in mounds associated with religious worship. According to Smith, the ancient North Americans built not only "walled towns," "forts," and "watch-towers" but also "temples." He compared the temple mounds with the altars or "high places" of ancient Israel.(19) In his 1808 book The History of America, Congregational clergyman Jedidiah Morse asserted that many of the large mounds in North America, especially the Grave Creek mound of Ohio, "were intended to serve as bases of temples."(20)
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_Doctor Steuss
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Re: Parity

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

Trevor wrote:
Doctor Steuss wrote:I hope to one day see it so clearly (whether on the side of the believer, or the non-believer). I see too much of a mixture of variations of ANE customs, and 19th century American Protestantism to make a clear-cut judgment call as of yet.


And where do you find evidence of these ANE customs in ancient America outside of the Book of Mormon?


That would be one of the kickers that keeps me in the doubt arena (unless of course, some of the writings of the early American explorers, etc. can be trusted… which I highly doubt, and think were probably tainted by early priests).
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_evolving
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Post by _evolving »

charity wrote:
Most of the seeming anachronisms have been shown to be false. All that is left is the horses thing and that has perfectly reasonable alternative explanations for the objective reasoner.


I will simply ask you for your definition of an what you believe an "objective reasoner" is???

and why, in your opinion, are the possible/potential answers for anachronistic issues throughout the Book of Mormon not coming from the brethren as official binding statements...
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Most of the seeming anachronisms have been shown to be false. All that is left is the horses thing and that has perfectly reasonable alternative explanations for the objective reasoner.


It's statements like this that make me shake my head. What alternative explanations are going to appease the "objective reasoner"? Is it that the horses were tapirs? Or that, despite the fact that abundant evidence - art as well as archaeological - for the other animals in Mesoamerica have been found, the horse evidence somehow disappeared?

My horse essay:

http://zarahemlacitylimits.com/wiki/index.php/Horses
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Trevor
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Re: Parity

Post by _Trevor »

Doctor Steuss wrote:That would be one of the kickers that keeps me in the doubt arena (unless of course, some of the writings of the early American explorers, etc. can be trusted… which I highly doubt, and think were probably tainted by early priests).


So, as the inimitable Brant Gardner often points out, the Book of Mormon, as a 'translated' work, is the only 'hard evidence' of its own antiquity. Beyond the suggestive parallels and possible hits within the text, we have witnesses of the plates who had absolutely no expertise in antiquities, and who were given to believing in things like Joseph Smith's treasure hunts.

So how does this stack up against the many texts roughly contemporary to the translation of the Book of Mormon that treat the theme of America's ancient peoples and their place in the Biblical world view?
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Mercury
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Re: Parity

Post by _Mercury »

Trevor wrote:
Doctor Steuss wrote:That would be one of the kickers that keeps me in the doubt arena (unless of course, some of the writings of the early American explorers, etc. can be trusted… which I highly doubt, and think were probably tainted by early priests).


So, as the inimitable Brant Gardner often points out, the Book of Mormon, as a 'translated' work, is the only 'hard evidence' of its own antiquity. Beyond the suggestive parallels and possible hits within the text, we have witnesses of the plates who had absolutely no expertise in antiquities, and who were given to believing in things like Joseph Smith's treasure hunts.

So how does this stack up against the many texts roughly contemporary to the translation of the Book of Mormon that treat the theme of America's ancient peoples and their place in the Biblical world view?


Heres the thing. There never were any witnesses to the gold plates unless you count hallucinations induced by drunkenness after fasting.
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_Trevor
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Re: Parity

Post by _Trevor »

Mercury wrote:Heres the thing. There never were any witnesses to the gold plates unless you count hallucinations induced by drunkenness after fasting.


I take your point, Mercury, but I prefer to give the witnesses the benefit of the doubt, because it doesn't matter in the end. They had no way of telling what the plates were even if there were plates. So what, then, does their witness mean other than that some object having the appearance of gold plates was put before them...at best?
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Doctor Steuss
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Re: Parity

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

Trevor wrote:[…]

So how does this stack up against the many texts roughly contemporary to the translation of the Book of Mormon that treat the theme of America's ancient peoples and their place in the Biblical world view?


By “stack up against,” are you asking what makes the Book of Mormon any different than those other texts, or are you referring to the potential parallels between them and the Book of Mormon?
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_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

Beastie, that's very interesting stuff, but my own line of reasoning is that it would not even have been necessary for Joseph Smith to have known about fortifications in the ancient Americas.

Take, for instance, science fiction. A popular element of science fiction is the concept of the gun. Some alien group of beings might use guns in their warfare. Rather than ask, "how could he possibly know that some alien race from a planet we haven't even discovered yet might have invented the gun?", we just assume that the author, who knows about guns because they exist on Earth, simply projected something familiar from our own existence onto his made-up alien race.

It's the same thing with fortifications. Fortifications were a matter of fact all over Europe, and in the Bible (the walls of Jericho came tumbling down, Jerusalem having fortifications, etc.). Joseph Smith, who certainly copied so much from the Bible, could easily have projected fortifications from just the Bible itself onto the ancient Americas. He need not have known that ancient American ruins actually had fortifications. And that such ruins have in fact been discovered in ancient America shouldn't be astounding, since the idea of fortifying a city that is under threat of attack is hardly non-obvious, and such fortifications have been practiced pretty much all over the world in one form or another.

The bottom line is that a lot of the attempted apologetic defenses of Book of Mormon anachronisms rely on the argument that Joseph Smith could not have known something or other about the ancient Americas, because it wasn't known yet, and that his putting that particular element into the Book of Mormon was thus prophetic. I just don't know how many people are actually making that argument.

If something was known to Joseph Smith at all, whether it particularly concerned ancient America or not, it was fair game for his inventive mind to include in a work of his own fiction.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
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