mentalgymnast wrote:Ah yes, the battle of Crooked River. A blackspot in early Mormon history. Can we have too many of them?
Regards, MG
What's that supposed to mean? Do you have some sort of substantive reply to my post or just some sort of odd suggestion that I'm trying to slander the church? Was it or was it not an attack on the militia? For the record, it looks very much like the militia unit was mistaken for a mob, and the Mormon attack was a preemptive strike.
Nothing here about black spots, but the Battle of Crooked River ended up being Boggs' justification for the Extermination Order and also provoked the massacre at Haun's Mill. I was just saying that I never knew any of that.
mentalgymnast wrote:Ah yes, the battle of Crooked River. A blackspot in early Mormon history. Can we have too many of them?
Regards, MG
What's that supposed to mean? Do you have some sort of substantive reply to my post or just some sort of odd suggestion that I'm trying to slander the church? Was it or was it not an attack on the militia? For the record, it looks very much like the militia unit was mistaken for a mob, and the Mormon attack was a preemptive strike.
Nothing here about black spots, but the Battle of Crooked River ended up being Boggs' justification for the Extermination Order and also provoked the massacre at Haun's Mill. I was just saying that I never knew any of that.
The battle played a role, but you've got to include what led to the battle, runtu. (by the way, it is doubtful those who participated in Haun's Mill knew about the Ext. Order yet.) Also- you should have read B.H. Roberts' Comprehensive History. You'd have learned this, as it was published back in 1930.
LifeOnaPlate wrote:The battle played a role, but you've got to include what led to the battle, runtu. (by the way, it is doubtful those who participated in Haun's Mill knew about the Ext. Order yet.)
What led to the battle, from my perspective is this. Some Mormons were forcibly not allowed to vote in elections and were badly beaten by a mob at the polling place in Gallatin. Joseph Smith organized a countermob that then attacked Gallatin, burned some buildings, and forced a judge at the point of a sword to enfranchise the Mormons. Mob skirmishes happened between Mormon and anti-Mormon mobs. The Mormons decided to take pre-emptive action against an approaching mob, which turned out to be a militia unit. This set off the chain of events leading up to Haun's Mill and the extermination order. Do you have a different take?
And I said nothing about the Haun's Mill killers knowing about the extermination order. They murdered the men and boys in the blacksmith shop out of revenge and hate, nothing more.
certainly the saints in around 1833 didn't deserve what they got, and disease wiped out the human rescue party and the heavenly rescue party must have been watching the world series because they didn't show up.
But this was the wild frontier where death, via disease or violence, was around every corner, and frontier justice was the real law as (GA's defending murders use to say in Salt Lake) Mormons can show show up saying their church is the true church and your church is a whore; this land is their land and god gave it to them and if you fight us god will destroy you. and the northerners can tell the southerners what do. so why did the Mormons get kicked out.
Now they come back five years later and say the same thing except they come back with a minute-man army, create a special forces group (danites) start expanding out of the county we created for them, burn down a neighboring county and take all the goods back to the Bishops storehouse, threaten judges, ambush state militia and state they are like the original christians of the first century enduring hardship. Your leaders are about to be arrested but they don't trust god to fight their battles and run into the night to escape. The big dude, the real leader, only on threat of entire destruction of the whole village, agrees to give himself up, but has a history of escaping into the night when brought up on charges of fraud.
mentalgymnast wrote:Ah yes, the battle of Crooked River. A blackspot in early Mormon history. Can we have too many of them?
Regards, MG
What's that supposed to mean?
That we shouldn't be surprised when we learn that the human condition, and the way that humans often repond thereto, is part and parcel of what makes up early Mormon history.
Along with and parallel with the histories of other religious groups and their problematical contacts with "the other".
No, I'm not slamming you, Runtu. I respect your opinion and insight.
mentalgymnast wrote:That we shouldn't be surprised when we learn that the human condition, and the way that humans often repond thereto, is part and parcel of what makes up early Mormon history.
Along with and parallel with the histories of other religious groups and their problematical contacts with "the other".
No, I'm not slamming you, Runtu. I respect your opinion and insight.
Regards, MG
I appreciate that. I was in no way expressing surprise that human frailties played a large part in early Mormon history. I was pointing out (at least attempting to) that we were taught a very black-and-white version of the Missouri persecutions, and it was a little unsettling to learn as an adult that things were not quite as they were portrayed.
That we shouldn't be surprised when we learn that the human condition, and the way that humans often repond thereto, is part and parcel of what makes up early Mormon history.
I KNOW my expectations were WAY too high nevertheless...
It just seemed reasonable to me that a man who talks to GOD, the creator of the universe, and who is inspired by GOD, and who receives revelation from GOD, and whose church is the divinely restored fullness of truth upon the Earth, would just maybe, sort of, be a little more holy than the average run of the mill, not so great person. Or that maybe God would send a little message to not kill others. Or possibly that God would inspire the prophet of the restoration to handle things a itsy bitsy bit better than the typical not so great man.
Ya know?
Again, I totally admit my expectations were WAY out of line on this sort of thing! :-)
I just started wondering... where was God in all this?
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
The issues relating to Missouri ae complex. AsI have studied this it is apparent the much of the trouble was caused by many imprudent things done and said by LDS people and leaders. Sydney Rigdon's rhetoric was strong. Danites caused some problems. LDS apostates contributed to the flames.
It seems to me however that the initial problems in Jackson county were primarily from non LDS Missourians. They really did seem to start it. It seem to spiral from there. It may be a bit strong to say that Joseph Smith was the primary mover and shaker. Certainly he and the Saints did fight and even in some cases attack. Keep in mind that other means for redress and defense had been attempted. The saints may have felt they had no other choice. While Seth made some valid points I also think he overstates it.