Joseph Smith Polygamy - Women as Victims?

[_Gazelam]

Anybody know who the guy is in Gaz's post? He's hot.

You think hes hot now, wait till he gets his resurrected, Celestialized body and is dwelling in the everlasting burnings of creation!

[_Runtu]

Anybody know who the guy is in Gaz's post? He's hot.

You think he's hot now, wait till he gets his resurrected, Celestialized body and is dwelling in the everlasting burnings of creation!

I just got a little vomit in the back of my throat.

[_barrelomonkeys]

ack! And I just got Diet Dr. Pepper all over my new laptop.

Shoot!

[_Gaia]

Hi Seth --

I guess I need to apologize, I addressed the topic from a much broader perspective than the thread's focus.

-- Sorry. I'll be happy to delete my messages if any of you think it appropriate.

That won't be necessary at all, and of course your answers are somewhat typical of an apologetic defense of Mormon polygamy in general.


GAIA:

There are a lOT Of LDS online who would find the idea that i would do a "typical apologetic defense" of ANYTHING Mormon, downright unbelievable -- *g* --

SETH:

It's all about the credibility of Joseph Smith as God's Prophet on Earth. If Joseph Smith was not credible in this role, then the whole edifice of the Mormon church is not credible. If Joseph Smith were not a true Prophet of a God who actually exists, then Brigham Young certainly wasn't, Lorenzo Snow wasn't, Wilford Woodruff wasn't, down to Gordon B. Hinckley, who certainly isn't.

I think Joseph Smith's actions with respect to his own despicable practice of secret, selfish and manipulative polygamy and polyandry clearly contradict the notion of him as a true Prophet.

GAIA:

*rueful grin* -- And that's precisely the trouble with this discussion -- Those who don't like Joseph Smith or don't want to accept him as a "prophet", use this episode as an example of why he can't possibly be one;

Those who WANT to accept him as a prophet, try to find reasons to understand, justify, or excuse his behavior;

And pretty much NOBODY ever really listens to each other -- which i think is sad.

But ok, starting from your position that "Joseph Smith's actions with respect to his own despicable practice of secret, selfish and manipulative polygamy and polyandry clearly contradict the notion of him as a true Prophet" --

I'd be interested to hear how you explain the facts that:

a. MANY prophets had distinct and troubling character flaws -- Jacob lied and "stole" the Birthright, David was an adulterer and accessory to murder; Moses argued with God and was arrogant, Peter denied Christ, etc etc ---
but that did not seem to preclude God using them as prophets or spiritual leaders;


b. The fact that Joseph Smith was a remarkable mystic cannot be denied:
He had visions which were simultaneously shared by companions, in which they (simultaneously) described what each other were seeing and experiencing, as reported by witnesses.


Blessings --
~GAia

[_moksha]

[That won't be necessary at all, and of course your answers are somewhat typical of an apologetic defense of Mormon polygamy in general.

My experience with Gaia over the years, is that she cannot be pigeonholed into any discernible category. She truly thinks for herself. What is remarkable is that she is a virtual cornucopia of scriptural information and can quote many sources. This has proved invaluable at Beliefnet and elsewhere, when people are hazy on what was really the policy or doctrine back when. She is also quite well versed in issues relating to women. Unlike myself, she fits in well with scholarly discussions.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Gaia... :-)

I know you were addressing Sethbag but... (smile)

a. MANY prophets had distinct and troubling character flaws -- Jacob lied and "stole" the Birthright, David was an adulterer and accessory to murder; Moses argued with God and was arrogant, Peter denied Christ, etc etc ---
but that did not seem to preclude God using them as prophets or spiritual leaders;

There have been men throughout the ages who think God is talking to them. I personally do not believe a one! :-)

Anyone can say anything, make up a story, share a myth, create a fantasy. Doesn't mean God is involved. I have a difficult, (OK, impossible), time thinking God is anything like these men claim "Him" to be.

While many apologists (I'm not saying you are one), use this excuse to justify Joseph Smith's pretty horrific behavior, to me, it just shows he is like other men who want power and who have gotten away with using the "God said," excuse!

b. The fact that Joseph Smith was a remarkable mystic cannot be denied:
He had visions which were simultaneously shared by companions, in which they (simultaneously) described what each other were seeing and experiencing, as reported by witnesses.

Well, I deny it. :-)

I think he most likely had some serious mental health issues. His stories and claimed experiences seem right in line with others who claim similar miraculous events who others don't necessarily idolize or worship.

Yes, Joseph Smith was a complex person as are we all.

:-)

~dancer~