God and a fraud?

[_mentalgymnast]

I've seen these conversations on Book of Mormon authorship ad nauseum for years. There has been no definitive verdict one way or the other. There are some interesting things to look at on both sides of the fence. I think we would all agree on that. Whatever its history, it's here.

So I ask myself the question, "Why a Book of Mormon?" What possible reason would a God have in "setting things up" so that this book would be here? With all the controversy surrounding the book, wouldn't it be smarter on God's part to dispense with the Book of Mormon? With its anachronisms and apparent 19th century influences it seems as though the book presents more problems and challenges than any good that comes out of it.

Or does it?

The Book of Mormon stands as a witness of a person who lived in history, but is considered by many to be something less than what he purportedly claimed himself to be. Many members of the church today act as witnesses of this person because of a spiritual witness/impressions received while reading this book. I see this as a powerful witness to the validity of the Book of Mormon. That a God would allow a fraud of this proportion to thrive or even exist IN THE NAME OF HIS SON AND AS A WITNESS OF HIS SON is preposterous. Yes, I'm having to allow that there is a loving God who's intent is not to dupe mankind, in order to make this statement. Yes, there are other religious systems that claim truth. There are even some that claim scriptural support and/or unique scripture/writings to validate their cause. As far as I know, however, the Book of Mormon is unique in the powerful witness contained therin that Jesus is Lord...the Christ...the Son of God. Christ is prevalent/pervasive throughout the book. His atonement is explained in much greater detail than in the Bible. Yes, it is possible that Joseph Smith could have concocted a fraud upon mankind that had the ultimate effect of bringing souls to Christ...but I just don't buy it. I can't conceive of a God that would let that happen SO THAT SO MANY PEOPLE WOULD BE DECEIVED INTO BELIEVING IN Christ under false pretenses.

President Hinckley has admitted to the fact that the LDS church doesn't worship the same Christ as creedal Christianity does. Why? Because of the fruits of the Book of Mormon. The fact is, the church exists and teaches what it does today concerning Christ as a result of the Book of Mormon and subsequent purported revelations. We are separate in many respects from the rest of Christianity. The Book of Mormon was/is a catalyst towards this reality/situation. The question that I think is incumbent on us to ask, at least if we're open enough to ask it, is..."If Jesus is the Christ, is he the Jesus of creedal Christianity and some of the restoration spinoffs, or is he the Jesus that is witnessed of in the LDS church?" Someone is right, or someone is wrong. Or...everybody is wrong. The Book of Mormon is the artifact speaking from the dust that gives rise to the possibility that the LDS church is right as it teaches concepts relating to God and man, albeit that to some extent this knowledge has come line upon line and precept upon precept.

I see the Book of Mormon as being just as I mentioned, an artifact from an ancient people/civilization whispering from the dust and witnessing of Jesus' mission and atonement for mankind. Acceptance of the Book of Mormon is acceptance of Christ and his teachings.

Rejection of the Book of Mormon Mormon results in people such as Keene subscribing to mind altering substances and non-belief in God as being "the way". Rejection results in loss of faith in the truth claims of the LDS church. Rejection often results in atheistic/agnostic tendencies. Rejection may result in a greater tendency towards alternate lifestyles, including hedonistic/immoral behaviors.

As I try to take a global/wider look at things, and again under the assumption that there is a God, I have a difficult time conceptualizing of a God that would let something OF THIS MAGNITUDE exist/proliferate in the name of his son. Of course, the underlying assumption being made here is that Jesus was who he said he was. And in my mind, at this point in my life, I cannot see the long range hope for humanity as being anything more/less than hopeless, in an eternal sense, if a loving God didn't foreordain someway for fallen man to be redeemed from what appears to be a tremendous fall from grace.

The Book of Mormon can be looked at as being a necessary component and tangible witness in an ongoing desire that God has to have his children believe in him and partake of all that he has to offer them not only now but throughout eternity. Of course if we choose to believe in a God that would choose to annihilate his creations/spirit children or simply create a cosmic borg community made up of what were once individual entities, then the Book of Mormon kind of messes things up. Or if we choose to disbelieve in God altogether, the Book of Mormon kind of messes things up. If we choose a worldly lifestyle, the Book of Mormon kind of messes things up too. It CLAIMS TO BE FROM GOD.

Take it as you may. Spaulding theories, View of the Hebrews, Automatic Writing, and everything else to the contrary. I've seen it all. You can beat on this till the cows come home and FARMS and Mormon Discussions become a lost item in an old obituary page. In my view there are other avenues of approach as we look validity/truthfulness...or not... of the Book of Mormon.

Too many, too easily have for one reason or another given up on the Book of Mormon. I think that's kind of sad.

Regards,
MG

[_Who Knows]

Sorry, I didn't read close enough to really get your point. But it seems like you keep referring to Mormonism as if it's this huge organization/religion that's affecting the entire world. When in reality, less than .2%, or .002, of the world population even cares. Less than 5% have probably even heard of Mormonism.

And how is the LDS religion any different than any other religion out there?

[_Runtu]

Acceptance of the Book of Mormon is acceptance of Christ and his teachings.

I think most Christians would disagree with you. You can accept Christ without accepting the Book of Mormon. I would say that accepting the Book of Mormon means that you accept Mormon teachings about Christ and other things.

Either way, the premise that God doesn't let people bring others to Christ through fraud is problematic. Does Benny Hinn bring people to Christ? Did Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker bring people to Christ? Surely, you're not suggesting that these guys weren't frauds.

The Book of Mormon is a fraud on a bigger scale simply because of the millions of people whose lives have been affected by it. But it's no less a fraud simply because it contains teachings about Christ. So did the Book of the Law of the Lord, and you don't believe James J. Strang was a prophet, do you?

[_Dr. Shades]

Yes, I'm having to allow that there is a loving God who's intent is not to dupe mankind, in order to make this statement. . . As I try to take a global/wider look at things, and again under the assumption that there is a God, . . . Of course, the underlying assumption being made here is that Jesus was who he said he was.

You sure are multiplying a lot of "ifs" here.

Rejection results in loss of faith in the truth claims of the LDS church.

As well it should. Would you have it any other way?

Rejection often results in atheistic/agnostic tendencies.

What's wrong with atheistic/agnostic tendencies?

Rejection may result in a greater tendency towards alternate lifestyles, including hedonistic/immoral behaviors.

Hedonism is good. 90% of immoral behaviors aren't actually immoral if there is no God.

And in my mind, at this point in my life, I cannot see the long range hope for humanity as being anything more/less than hopeless, in an eternal sense, . . .

Where in the rulebook does it say that there has to be long range hope for humanity?

. . . if a loving God didn't foreordain someway for fallen man to be redeemed from what appears to be a tremendous fall from grace.

What if there is a loving God and there was no fall from grace, tremendous or otherwise? Like, say, if the Buddhists are right?

Of course if we choose to believe in a God that would choose to annihilate his creations/spirit children or simply create a cosmic borg community made up of what were once individual entities, then the Book of Mormon kind of messes things up.

How? If the Book of Mormon is fiction, then God didn't have anything to do with it anyway.

Or if we choose to disbelieve in God altogether, the Book of Mormon kind of messes things up.

How so? If the Book of Mormon is fiction, it doesn't mess anything up. Just like the Lord of the Rings didn't mess anything up.

If we choose a worldly lifestyle, the Book of Mormon kind of messes things up too. It CLAIMS TO BE FROM GOD.

Claims come a dime a dozen, and 99% of them are false. So how does the Book of Mormon mess anything up if we choose a worldly lifestyle?

Too many, too easily have for one reason or another given up on the Book of Mormon. I think that's kind of sad.

What about the ones who have given up on the Book of Mormon, but not too easily? In other words, what do you say about the people who have given up for it for extremely good reasons?

[Guest]

Rejection often results in atheistic/agnostic tendencies.

Atheistic / agnostic tendancies?!!!

Noooooooo! Anything but that....! Oh the humanity!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTC2Ihnsrf0
(Forget the bit at the end - beaker is really running around with smoke coming out of his ears because he just contemplated the idea that there might not actually be a God...)


I was practically promised a life of hedonistic bliss if I became an atheist.
...I want my money back...

[_gramps]

Mentalgymnast wrote:

Rejection of the Book of Mormon Mormon results in people such as Keene subscribing to mind altering substances and non-belief in God as being "the way". Rejection results in loss of faith in the truth claims of the LDS church. Rejection often results in atheistic/agnostic tendencies. Rejection may result in a greater tendency towards alternate lifestyles, including hedonistic/immoral behaviors.

As I try to take a global/wider look at things, and again under the assumption that there is a God, I have a difficult time conceptualizing of a God that would let something OF THIS MAGNITUDE exist/proliferate in the name of his son. Of course, the underlying assumption being made here is that Jesus was who he said he was. And in my mind, at this point in my life, I cannot see the long range hope for humanity as being anything more/less than hopeless, in an eternal sense, if a loving God didn't foreordain someway for fallen man to be redeemed from what appears to be a tremendous fall from grace.

You are being serious, I take it. Of course, some of us here have no assumption that there is a God. In fact, most of the world has no assumption that God exists as you believe him to exist. So, you are making a pretty big assumption, my friend.

You are not taking a global/wider look at things. Your view is extremely myopic in nature. And typical of a lot of Mormons. You aren't saying anything that we haven't heard before from you guys.

Leaving the faith leads to using mind-altering substances.

Leaving the faith leads to our developing atheistic/agnostic tendencies. LOL You are cracking me up. You know you are an atheist as well, unless you are telling me you believe in all the other myriad of gods out there in the world. Duh!

Leaving the faith leads us to hedonism, too! Oh my!

And you are stuck believing in the gold Bible and using the gold Bible to tell us what a "heathen" is? You crack me up.

Tremendous fall from grace? So, you can't wrap your head around the idea of evolution, either? Really pathetic, actually.

Wake up, literally, and smell the coffee, brother. Oh wait! You might become a heathen. That's right.

Because the gold Bible told you so. Oh and a old suit from the world conquest building in Salt Lake City, told you so, too. Pretty worldly view. Not!

LMAO.

[_mentalgymnast]

Sorry, I didn't read close enough to really get your point. But it seems like you keep referring to Mormonism as if it's this huge organization/religion that's affecting the entire world. When in reality, less than .2%, or .002, of the world population even cares. Less than 5% have probably even heard of Mormonism.

And how is the LDS religion any different than any other religion out there?

No, I'm not referring to Mormonism as a belief system that is affecting the entire world. Only a small portion. No disputation there. That seems to be something important to you.

Different? Claims to be the repository of ultimate truth, authority, ordinances, necessary for exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God. Any other takers out there?

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Acceptance of the Book of Mormon is acceptance of Christ and his teachings.

I think most Christians would disagree with you. You can accept Christ without accepting the Book of Mormon. I would say that accepting the Book of Mormon means that you accept Mormon teachings about Christ and other things.

No disagreement there.

Either way, the premise that God doesn't let people bring others to Christ through fraud is problematic. Does Benny Hinn bring people to Christ? Did Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker bring people to Christ? Surely, you're not suggesting that these guys weren't frauds.

They brought souls to Jesus, yes. They were egotistic and bombastic in their approach. They struggled with sin and imperfection.

The Book of Mormon is a fraud on a bigger scale simply because of the millions of people whose lives have been affected by it. But it's no less a fraud simply because it contains teachings about Christ. So did the Book of the Law of the Lord, and you don't believe James J. Strang was a prophet, do you?

You have not proved that the Book of Mormon is a fraud. I have given reason to believe otherwise.

The Book of Mormon has brought souls to Christ.

No, I don't think that Strang was a prophet of the Lord. I think his book was a fraud. The fruits of the Strangite movement are not worthy of consideration.

I'm not sure that you got my point. Go deeper friend.

Regards,
MG

[_Runtu]

You have not proved that the Book of Mormon is a fraud. I have given reason to believe otherwise.

I have never claimed to have proven it a fraud. I'm sure you do have reasons that make sense to you.

The Book of Mormon has brought souls to Christ.

Can't argue with you there.

No, I don't think that Strang was a prophet of the Lord. I think his book was a fraud. The fruits of the Strangite movement are not worthy of consideration.

Some people say the same thing about your religion. Fruits are in the eye of the beholder, I guess.








I'm not sure that you got my point. Go deeper friend.[/quote]

[_mentalgymnast]

Yes, I'm having to allow that there is a loving God who's intent is not to dupe mankind, in order to make this statement. . . As I try to take a global/wider look at things, and again under the assumption that there is a God, . . . Of course, the underlying assumption being made here is that Jesus was who he said he was.

You sure are multiplying a lot of "ifs" here.

Assumptions are to made as one evolves towards any kind of belief system or non-belief. You make certain assumptions about God as you evolve towards unbelief.

Hedonism is good. 90% of immoral behaviors aren't actually immoral if there is no God.

True.

Where in the rulebook does it say that there has to be long range hope for humanity?

Only in a rulebook that would lay out a process by which fallen man can become more as the Father is and to reach a more perfected state. Scriptures.

What if there is a loving God and there was no fall from grace, tremendous or otherwise? Like, say, if the Buddhists are right?

There it is. An assumption, or at least a hypothesis.

What if?

Does Buddhism lead people towards goodness and light? If so, is it good? Is it of God?

If it is, does that in any way discount or do away with the truth claims of Mormonism?

If the Book of Mormon is fiction...

The Book of Mormon has not been proven to be fiction. I believe there are reasons to think otherwise...as I have stated.

Or if we choose to disbelieve in God altogether, the Book of Mormon kind of messes things up.

How so? If the Book of Mormon is fiction, it doesn't mess anything up. Just like the Lord of the Rings didn't mess anything up.

If we choose a worldly lifestyle, the Book of Mormon kind of messes things up too. It CLAIMS TO BE FROM GOD.

Claims come a dime a dozen, and 99% of them are false. So how does the Book of Mormon mess anything up if we choose a worldly lifestyle?

Too many, too easily have for one reason or another given up on the Book of Mormon. I think that's kind of sad.

What about the ones who have given up on the Book of Mormon, but not too easily? In other words, what do you say about the people who have given up for it for extremely good reasons?

The Book of Mormon messes things up for the wicked and/or unbelievers because it teaches correct principles and doctrine concerning Christ. One will be accountable for what one decides concerning this book and how one either conforms their lives to its teachings or not.

If it's true, that is.

If you have given up on the Book of Mormon for what you consider to be extremely good reasons, that is between you and your maker. If there is no God, it won't matter. If there is a God and he doesn't really give a crap...it won't matter either.

Of course, your POV may differ. That's OK.

I have reason to believe you're wrong...but that's OK. Freedom of religious belief and all that. Joseph Smith taught the same thing. Worship who or what you may. Or don't worship at all. It's your life.

Why make such a big stink about those that do believe though?

Regards,
MG