God and a fraud?

[_mentalgymnast]

[is it]... too much to suggest he intervene to prevent real suffering and death? And you ask me HOW should he stop it? He's an omnipotent being, that's how.

Give him some ideas. Maybe he's listening in.

Regards,
MG

[Guest]

Sorry! I just keep finding more and more! I wish I'd done this all in one post. My apologies! :)

Assumptions are to made as one evolves towards any kind of belief system or non-belief. You make certain assumptions about God as you evolve towards unbelief.

And you presume to know what assumptions are made?

No. Only that they are made.

Regards,
MG

Hahaa.. Um. So? You make assumptions about God too. *gasp* Are you a hedonist?!

Naa naa naa naa naa.

Geez.


Do you have a point? Really? If one of your big boogaboos about losing faith is that assumptions are made then back it up with WHY that is an issue! Make a case for why assumptions of God have anything to do with anything. Cause you have em too!

Good grief.

I asked YOU what immoral behaviors do you presribe to hedonists?

I read the whatever-it-is-you-copy-and-pasted and it was a bunch of babble about the natural man and hedonism and teen pregnancy. What BEHAVIORS do you believe can be attributed to hedonism? And why are they immoral?

You didn't answer my other questions from earlier on the thread. Me thinks you like to say agnostic/atheist tendencies without any semblance of thought behind those terms.

[_mentalgymnast]

You seriously suggest God should intervene to prevent (one of many) frauds being perpetrated in his son's name...

I think that it is reasonable to believe that Mormonism is not one of many frauds though. Many frauds do not a fraud make.

For the reasons I mentioned initially, I cannot see God perpetuating a lie/fraud of this magnitude.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

You seriously suggest God should intervene to prevent (one of many) frauds being perpetrated in his son's name, yet it's too much to suggest he intervene to prevent real suffering and death?

And you ask me HOW should he stop it? He's an omnipotent being, that's how.


So why hasn't God struck all those slimy televangelists dead yet?

They are leading people to Jesus. At least within a spectrum of belief and practice.

I think I know where you're headed here. Apparently God doesn't strike anyone down who claims to speak in the name of Jesus. In fact, God doesn't seem to strike anyone down who claims to speak in the name of any sort of diety or in support of any religious practice (Satanism for example), or any philosophical/spiritual/hedonistic, or you name it belief, no matter how whacko or off the beaten path.

The short answers and questions...
Agency? They'll get their's in the end? They're doing more good than harm? When does he step in and when doesn't he? How does he do it and not bring attention to himself (if he'd rather not do so)?

Who knows all the parameters involved? I sure don't. Yep, it almost looks like there is no God there giving a damn about anything. Granted.

But...when it comes to the restoration story of the LDS church, I am of the opinion that we're moving into territory and that it is a different beast/story. It's much bigger than a tele-evangelist, or a moonie, or a scientology nut, or a ...well, you name it. If you're not able to see that, I'm not sure that we really have anywhere to go. We'd have to agree to disagree I guess.

Regards,
MG

[_barrelomonkeys]

Well obviously if you're attempting to force someone else to do something, and they are resistant to that force, does that not in turn create a struggle that would not maximize pleasure?

But what if a person is not maximizing their own pleasure?
Wouldn't a hedonist then be required - as part of their philosophy on life - to take some action and try and maximize that persons pleasure? Isn't it possible that forcing some onto them might be enough to counteract the negative effect of 'resistance' enough that the net result is a pleasure 'positive'?

Well why would a hedonist concern themselves with maximizing the pleasure of others if it does not in and of itself maximize their own pleasure as well?

Forcing someone to do something that they do not desire to maximize your own pleasure - ack - okay....... I don't wanna talk about this anymore cause I'm gonna get into a pissed off mode. Which I am already am.

Anyway, I'm not fond of doing for others what I 'think' is in their best interest. As a matter of fact that paternalistic mindset is something that infuriates me at times. Unless, of course (The Special Case!), you're dealing with children.

Hits too close to home at the moment. I'll get back to you on this Ren. :)

[_mentalgymnast]

Hey MG...

The Book of Mormon messes things up for the wicked and/or unbelievers because it teaches correct principles and doctrine concerning Christ. One will be accountable for what one decides concerning this book and how one either conforms their lives to its teachings or not.

If it's true, that is.

Big, BIG 'if'. :-)

Hi TD, it's always good to interact with you. You keep me thinking!

There are lots of BIG ifs. We ALL pick and choose them based on the available evidence and how we assimilate/process that evidence. I don't know that anyone makes it through life without picking and choosing their "ifs". BIG and small.

For some of us, like me, (smile), I think many of the teachings of the LDS church are "immoral." Now that is not the word I would use... I would say, unhealthy, harmful, hurtful, or cruel still, the point is that YOU think the teachings are good others may disagree. YOU think the LDS church is in line with the teachings of Jesus, others do not.

I think the teachings of the LDS church today have reached a stage in their evolution/development where they are on the whole, good and moral. Now, if I lived at/in another time and in another place and observed the disciples of Christ/God functioning within the environmental conditions/culture that made them part and parcel of who they are, I would be tempted to look down on them or tend to judge/criticize them. But I think I would be in the wrong by doing so.

You may think the Old Testament is a great guideline for moral behavior, others may see it differently. You may think there is reason to believe the Book of Mormon (or the church), is true, others do not see a remote possibility at all.

I don't see parts of the Old Testament as being great guidelines for behavior for us today. But I also don't see that as a problem. I can full well see why there are those that cannot view the Book of Mormon of having a remote possibility of being true...because of where they're at.

My point being... you approach the argument with so many "ifs" that it becomes almost nonsensical.

There aren't that many "ifs". Just some big ones. But I don't see where they are nonsensical.

Why would God set up a church that inhibits spiritual growth, creates rules that are unhealthy, asks people to do horrible things to each other? Why would God set up a church that makes truth seem like lies, and lies seem like truth? Why would God set up a church that only a handful of humans would possibly believe? Why would God set up a plan that seems so horrible and unfair? Why would God set up a system that feels in opposition to life, existence, and goodness? Etc. etc. etc.

As I said, the church looks less and less the way you describe it as time goes on. The church is a culture within a culture made up of people that live within a given time and space. I don't think it's fair to judge others that are not within our current culture/time/space. I think that if God is involved, it's only to the extent that he has set up a pretty gosh darn good laboratory for learning without a whole lot of interference.

As you know, I hold that any church may be the true one, and God could be any of the thousands of Gods that folks claim to be the one and only. I do not see a possibility of anyone actually figuring out the mysteries of life and I think the Mystery/God is about a 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 squared times more incredible, amazing, and unknowable to the human than any church or man could imagine. :-)

I agree that any church is true along a spectrum of truth/light. I also agree that God is much bigger than any church, including the LDS church.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Sorry! I just keep finding more and more! I wish I'd done this all in one post. My apologies! :)

Assumptions are to made as one evolves towards any kind of belief system or non-belief. You make certain assumptions about God as you evolve towards unbelief.

And you presume to know what assumptions are made?

No. Only that they are made.

Regards,
MG

I read the whatever-it-is-you-copy-and-pasted and it was a bunch of babble about the natural man and hedonism and teen pregnancy.

It wasn't a bunch of babble. Not by any stretch.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

I asked YOU what immoral behaviors do you presribe to hedonists?

Go back and read the two quotes from Elder Maxwell. Try to see them as something other that the words of a babbling fool. by the way, Elder Maxwell was not a fool. I respected him as much as I've respected any GA. I'll bet there are some disaffected members or ex-members on this board that would, at least if their honest with themselves, agree with me on that point.

Read the scriptures referenced in the two quotes also, then and tell me what you think could be considered to be immoral/hedonistic behaviors. I'll let you know what I think. Fair enough?

Go for it.

Regards,
MG

[_barrelomonkeys]

Mental gymnast, What behaviors are hedonistic?

Mental gymnast, What do you believe are agnostic/atheist tendencies?

Mental gymnast, for what purpose did you bring up that people have assumptions of God?

[_barrelomonkeys]

I asked YOU what immoral behaviors do you presribe to hedonists?

Go back and read the two quotes from Elder Maxwell. Try to see them as something other that the words of a babbling fool. by the way, Elder Maxwell was not a fool. I respected him as much as I've respected any GA. I'll bet there are some disaffected members or ex-members on this board that would, at least if their honest with themselves, agree with me on that point.

Read the scriptures then and tell me what you think could be considered to be immoral/hedonistic behaviors. I'll let you know what I think. Fair enough?

Go for it.

Regards,
MG

I did not call anyone a fool. I think hedonism is a term that describes a philosophy that maximizes pleasure while seeking to escape pain. There are many ways in which we all do this everyday. I know what I believe the term means. I want to know what YOU think it means.

I believe you use the term to try to label anything immoral as such. Pre-marital sex? Is that one? Homosexuality? Another one? Drugs? Is that one?

Why don't you tell me. I don't know what morals you hold and what behaviors you believe hedonists do that violates these morals.

Is it quite possible that someone could be a hedonist and not be immoral? I say yes.