I'm going back to church!

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_mentalgymnast

Re: How many...?

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Trevor wrote:How many believers, having really examined in detail the historical and scientific evidence concerning LDS claims...have to refashion it significantly to adjust to their new understanding of the facts?


I would guess quite a few. After a period of time though, it all comes back to the basics. Faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost. Living the gospel. Enduring to the end in faith. Over time, the other stuff really does take a back seat. Why? Because with most issues there is a flip side that is reasonable.

There is no reason to jettison the basics. There are many reasons to exercise faith and stay on the path. The fruits of the gospel are white and delightsome.

1 Nephi 8

11 And it came to pass that I did go forth and partake of the afruit thereof; and I beheld that it was most sweet, above all that I ever before tasted. Yea, and I beheld that the fruit thereof was white, to exceed all the whiteness that I had ever seen.
12 And as I partook of the fruit thereof it filled my soul with exceedingly great joy; wherefore, I began to be desirous that my family should partake of it also; for I knew that it was desirable above all other fruit.
13 And as I cast my eyes round about, that perhaps I might discover my family also, I beheld a river of water; and it ran along, and it was near the tree of which I was partaking the fruit.
14 And I looked to behold from whence it came; and I saw the head thereof a little way off; and at the head thereof I beheld your mother Sariah, and Sam, and Nephi; and they stood as if they knew not whither they should go.
15 And it came to pass that I beckoned unto them; and I also did say unto them with a loud voice that they should come unto me, and partake of the fruit, which was desirable above all other fruit.
16 And it came to pass that they did come unto me and partake of the fruit also.
17 And it came to pass that I was desirous that Laman and Lemuel should come and partake of the fruit also; wherefore, I cast mine eyes towards the head of the river, that perhaps I might see them.
18 And it came to pass that I saw them, but they would not come unto me and partake of the fruit.
19 And I beheld a rod of iron, and it extended along the bank of the river, and led to the tree by which I stood.
20 And I also beheld a strait and narrow path, which came along by the rod of iron, even to the tree by which I stood; and it also led by the head of the fountain, unto a large and spacious field, as if it had been a world.
21 And I saw numberless concourses of people, many of whom were pressing forward, that they might obtain the path which led unto the tree by which I stood.
22 And it came to pass that they did come forth, and commence in the path which led to the tree.
23 And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost.
24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.
25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.
26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.
27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.
28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost.
29 And now I, Nephi, do not speak all the words of my father.
30 But, to be short in writing, behold, he saw other multitudes pressing forward; and they came and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press their way forward, continually holding fast to the rod of iron, until they came forth and fell down and partook of the fruit of the tree.
31 And he also saw other multitudes feeling their way towards that great and spacious building.
32 And it came to pass that many were drowned in the depths of the fountain; and many were lost from his view, wandering in strange roads.
33 And great was the multitude that did enter into that strange building. And after they did enter into that building they did point the finger of ascorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not.
34 These are the words of my father: For as many as heeded them, had fallen away.


This is powerful. At least to me. This story/vision is important enough that it was given to at least one other besides Nephi and his father.

Recently I was talking with my dad. He's been through the wringer just as we all have. He came out a non-believer. I came out a conditional/plausible believer. If the church is not true, it's still good for many folks and for those that don't fit the mold...it won't matter. If it is true, its fruits are pruned/nurtured by God himself and everyone can benefit as they partake of the white and delightsome fruit.

I'm willing to come down on the side of belief. Why not?

I haven't seen the "deal breaker" reason to turn away, although at times some issues have come awfully darn close.

Time heals. Time teaches.

Regards,
MG
_Polygamy Porter
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Re: Porter

Post by _Polygamy Porter »

Gazelam wrote:Here is a waterproof stone box found in Titicaca, Isla Del Sol. Moronis was probably very similar:

Image
Really?

Then where is Moroni's magic box?

I bet old Moroni kept his girlie petroglyphs in it.
_Trevor
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Re: How many...?

Post by _Trevor »

mentalgymnast wrote:Recently I was talking with my dad. He's been through the wringer just as we all have. He came out a non-believer. I came out a conditional/plausible believer. If the church is not true, it's still good for many folks and for those that don't fit the mold...it won't matter. If it is true, its fruits are pruned/nurtured by God himself and everyone can benefit as they partake of the white and delightsome fruit.

I'm willing to come down on the side of belief. Why not?

I haven't seen the "deal breaker" reason to turn away, although at times some issues have come awfully darn close.


Excellent post, MG. I totally respect your position. What I have a more difficult time with, however, is the folks who really do engage in Olympic mental gymnastics and insist that everything about the LDS Church is either literally true or complete garbage. They are left bending and twisting in all kinds of unnatural ways to make reality fit their belief. Apologists are some of the worst offenders.

I will never forget the day that Brant Gardner told me that we should not expect to ever find hard evidence confirming the historicity of the Book of Mormon. It was at that moment that I concluded there was no point arguing with him. Why argue with a person who has knowingly and willfully abandoned the bedrock principles of the scientific method and yet pretends to proceed on a scientific basis?
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Polygamy Porter
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Re: How many...?

Post by _Polygamy Porter »

Trevor wrote:[What I have a more difficult time with, however, is the folks who really do engage in Olympic mental gymnastics and insist that everything about the LDS Church is either literally true or complete garbage.
Yo Trev, LDS leaders have stated that exactly.

Hinck has worn it out during his reign as CEO of LDS Inc. It is either true or false, no middle ground. Got it?

The rest are half assed morons, eerr Mormons.. ahh same thing.
_Trevor
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Re: How many...?

Post by _Trevor »

Polygamy Porter wrote:
Trevor wrote:[What I have a more difficult time with, however, is the folks who really do engage in Olympic mental gymnastics and insist that everything about the LDS Church is either literally true or complete garbage.
Yo Trev, LDS leaders have stated that exactly.

Hinck has worn it out during his reign as CEO of LDS Inc. It is either true or false, no middle ground. Got it?

The rest are half assed morons, eerr Mormons.. ahh same thing.


Yo, PP, I know it man, and if you take them at their word, you will be exactly where you are now, because the evidence for it being literally true is just not there. If someone really wants to stay in it, they need to drop this position or remain ignorant. The evidence and the conclusion that it is all literally true just don't stack up. Take the Book of Abraham for example.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_harmony
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Re: How many...?

Post by _harmony »

Trevor wrote: Take the Book of Abraham for example.


Indeed. Take the Book of Abraham... far far away, never to return
_Maxrep
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Re: Porter

Post by _Maxrep »

Polygamy Porter wrote:
Gazelam wrote:Here is a waterproof stone box found in Titicaca, Isla Del Sol. Moronis was probably very similar:

Image
Really?

Then where is Moroni's magic box?

I bet old Moroni kept his girlie petroglyphs in it.


The box center stage is obviously an Incan toilet. The stone cylinders on either side were actually stacked in tandem to hold and protect the spherical Liahona. Duh... :)
I don't expect to see same-sex marriage in Utah within my lifetime. - Scott Lloyd, Oct 23 2013
_Zoidberg
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Post by _Zoidberg »

"We're often trying to compare our traditions versus science, but what does the Book of Mormon actually say? ... No matter how many opinions someone might have about the Book of Mormon, if the opinion is wrong, it's the opinion that's wrong and not the book,"


It takes a true genius to realize that if an opinion is wrong, it is wrong.

Get it? The Book of Mormon horses were horses. The opinion that they were tapirs is wrong.
"reason and religion are friends and allies" - Mitt Romney
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

The whole apologetic mindset is that the church is definitely true, and all their preparation, all their research, and all of their desire is to be ready and able to offer good arguments in defense of anything that comes up to cast the church's truthfulness in doubt.


I also think that their absolute conviction* that the church is true leads them to be able, at time, to make misleading statements.

When John Clark or Brant Gardner makes some statement about how, for example, Book of Mormon warfare matches Mesoamerican warfare, they know, good and well, all the myriad problems that are attached to that statement. They know that, without addressing those problems, they are misleading their audience. But they still do it.

They don't do it because they're bad people. They do it because they genuinely believe that, in the end, the Book of Mormon really was true and really did take place in Mesoamerica, so it's ok to mislead a little based on our current knowledge, because one day that knowledge will change to conform to the Book of Mormon.


*I have gradually grown to conclude that these apologists are the True Believers in the Eric Hoffer sense of the word, not the simple chapel Mormons who don't have any idea about these problems and issues
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

When John Clark or Brant Gardner makes some statement about how, for example, Book of Mormon warfare matches Mesoamerican warfare, they know, good and well, all the myriad problems that are attached to that statement. They know that, without addressing those problems, they are misleading their audience. But they still do it.


I remember some time ago in a discussion on ZLMB concerning the Book of Mormon Tours offered by LDS folks, Brant replied to my assertion that it was shameful for the church to support this nonsense.

Brant's reply was something along the lines of... "it isn't hurting anyone and if it strengthens their testimonies then what is the harm?"

It really was an eye-opener for me.

As if truth doesn't matter in the least... so long as a testimony is strengthened deception doesn't matter!

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
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