Optimist or pessimist, religious tendency

Post by **_Roger Morrison** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:27 am

Pasted below is an article that makes me wonder about Millenialists and "the world is getting worse" folks. The last paragraph in the the article makes a rather negative suggestion about fundie religious types. As i read it.

Humans are hard-wired for optimism and think good things will happen to them in the future despite no evidence to support such expectations, according to a study by U.S. and British researchers.

CBC News
People expect to live longer and be healthier than average, underestimate their likelihood of getting a divorce and overestimate their prospects of career success, psychologists and neurologists from New York University and University College in London wrote in the latest issue of the periodical Nature.

The optimism is wired into the brain, they wrote, which recalls past events in an effort to imagine the future. Certain portions of the brain - the amygdala and the rostral anterior cingulate cortex - showed increased activity in test subjects who had been asked to imagine future events.

The researchers used magnetic resonance imaging to monitor subjects while they thought of future possible events, such as winning an award or the end of a relationship.

"When participants imagined positive future events relative to negative ones, enhanced activation was detected in the rostral anterior cingulate and amygdala, which are the same brain areas that seem to malfunction in depression," said lead author Tali Sharot, now a post-doctoral fellow at University College London.

More optimistic participants showed greater activity in the rostral anterior cingulate region when imagining future positive events, Sharot said.

The researchers found test subjects usually expected positive events to happen sooner than negative events, and generally imagined them with greater vividness.

"Our behavioural results suggest that while the past is constrained, the future is open to interpretation, allowing people to distance themselves from possible negative events and move closer toward positive ones," NYU professor Elizabeth Phelps said in a release.

"Understanding optimism is critical as optimism has been related to physical and mental health. On the other hand, a pessimistic view is correlated with severity of depression symptoms."

Healthy guy that i am, maybe now i know why i seem to be in so much disagreement with TBMs? Waddaya'll think? Warm regards, Roger

Post by **_Roger Morrison** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:30 am

22 hits no comments? Falling below the average 10% ratio? :-) I thought this would be a topic of interest.

To undertand human tendency is to be forward looking with optimisim--which i thought folks-of-faith would naturally do--rather than negatively, suggested to me, "God" is winning! "Satan" is losing. Is that not the case in the 'contest'? Pasted below is the summary, as i saw it:

Our behavioural results suggest that while the past is constrained, the future is open to interpretation, allowing people to distance themselves from possible negative events and move closer toward positive ones," NYU professor Elizabeth Phelps said in a release.

"Understanding optimism is critical as optimism has been related to physical and mental health. On the other hand, a pessimistic view is correlated with severity of depression symptoms."

Just seemed to me the way "God" would have us be????? Warm regards, Roger

Post by **_charity** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:41 am

"Understanding optimism is critical as optimism has been related to physical and mental health. On the other hand, a pessimistic view is correlated with severity of depression symptoms."

Okay. I see the last paragraph. Doesn't talk at all about any type of religion. So you are reading something into it.

And you can't talk around me on this one. Learned helplessness, optismism and depression, etc. was my field of study. My master's degree was on it.

Since active LDS trend to be healthier physically and mentally must mean they are more optimistic.

So what is your point?

Post by **_cacheman** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:09 pm

Hi Roger,

You're always good for a little 'food for thought'. I was just having a little discussion with someone on another board about the future of the world. The other poster expects and anticipates further polarization between the forces of good and the forces of evil, with evil eventually becoming the dominant force. I see the potential for the world to evolve in a positive direction, and actually come closer together. I am able to see signs of this occuring now. So one could say that I have a more optimistic view of the future.

At the same time, this person believes that after this polarization and the terrible things that will result from it, evil will eventually be overcome, and the earth will reclaim its paradaisical glory, and love and unity will reign throughout the eternities. So in that sense, he is being very optimistic about the future.

In this situation, it appears that there are at least two different ways to view the future optimistically. Personally, I think that pessimism about the near future can have a negative effect on the reality of the near future, so I don't think that it is a healthy view. At the same time, I believe that both perspectives can offer people benefits in terms of personal physical and mental health, but I wonder if the benefits of his optimism don't extend as far as they could.

In my mind the healthiest way to view this in a way that effects the individual as well as society, would be to retain an optimistic outlook on both the near and far future. This leads to the ability to commit ones self to positive activities throughout the world not hampered by expected and anticipated failures. This type of mindset can only be good for the individual as well as society.

Those are just some of my thoughts.

cacheman

Post by **_Zoidberg** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:14 pm

charity wrote:Since active LDS trend to be healthier physically and mentally must mean they are more optimistic.

I have two questions.

1. What stats are you using?
2. Do you actually think there is a causal relationship between being active LDS and being optimistic? If so, which one's the cause and which the effect? If not, what could be responsible for the correlation that you say exists?

Post by **_charity** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:55 pm

Zoidberg wrote:
charity wrote:Since active LDS trend to be healthier physically and mentally must mean they are more optimistic.

I have two questions.

1. What stats are you using?
2. Do you actually think there is a causal relationship between being active LDS and being optimistic? If so, which one's the cause and which the effect? If not, what could be responsible for the correlation that you say exists?

These stats:

"Dietary Restrictions Keep Mormons Healthy

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA -- A professor at UCLA credits LDS prohibitions on tobacco, tea, coffee and drugs for keeping Church members healthier than others in an article that reviews the health benefits of the teachings of several religions. James E. Enstrom, research professor in the school of public health at the University of California, Los Angeles, studies the low rates of cancer and long lives of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Enstrom, who is not a member of the LDS Church, conducted a study of the health of 10,000 LDS Church members over 14 years of age found that they lived an average of eight to 11 years longer than other white Americans."

This is pretty encouraging to me. As a left hander, I lose 11 years compared to the right handed population. As LDS I just got it back!

I haven't seen any studies or stats on optimism correlated with LDS beliefs. So I won't make any statements on something I don't have data to back up. Unlike other posters here at times.

Post by **_Roger Morrison** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:43 pm

WOW! More like it! 4 hits in 10 hrs! Thanks Guys & Gal!

Charity, as usual, right on da ball. You wrote, & i'm in bold:

Okay. I see the last paragraph. Doesn't talk at all about any type of religion. So you are reading something into it. RM: You're correct, it doesn't mention religion. And my topic opening didn't get the ? mark i intended... It matters not. As with a # of things i read, i often get something out of it that may not have been in the 'author's' mind, but does bear on other things, within my experience range. I expect you do the same? T'would have been more 'charitable' had you phrased "So you are reading something into it.": 'So, are you reading something into it?'?? Seems unnessessarily accusative ;-)

And you can't talk around me on this one. RM: Do you think i want to? Threatened? ;-) Learned helplessness, optismism and depression, etc. was my field of study. My master's degree was on it. RM: Congrats! Then i expect some real-good-stuff. And, your degree is in what?

Since active LDS trend to be healthier physically and mentally must mean they are more optimistic. RM: Some certainly are. Not simply by being LDS, but cuz they live the principle/law upon which such health is predicated. Atheist are similarly 'rewarded'. Sort-of, "God" being no respector of persons, or i add, of sects. Don't you agree?

So what is your point? RM: I wasn't specifically attempting to make a "point". I simply thought it worthy of discussion. Seems it is.

Post by **_Roger Morrison** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:40 pm

Hi Catcheman, you wrote, and i'm in bold:

... I was just having a little discussion with someone on another board about the future of the world. The other poster expects and anticipates further polarization between the forces of good and the forces of evil, with evil eventually becoming the dominant force. I see the potential for the world to evolve in a positive direction, and actually come closer together. I am able to see signs of this occuring now. So one could say that I have a more optimistic view of the future. RM: As i see it too.

At the same time, this person believes that after this polarization and the terrible things that will result from it, evil will eventually be overcome, and the earth will reclaim its paradaisical glory, and love and unity will reign throughout the eternities. RM: This is a commonly held belief of Millenialists. So in that sense, he is being very optimistic about the future. RM: So it appears. More below:

The main difference between the two points of view you state above, as i see it: Your optimism, and mine, is in humankind to resolve the differences that tend to keep humans at odds with each other. Actually, Jesus taught us how best to do that. As i see it pedagogically, that was Jesus' lesson objective. That to this point it hasn't materialized, in no way discredits the teacher, or the principles he presented. However, it does say considerable about the students ;-)

OTOH, as i see it, the Millenialist's view seems to see humankind incapable of resolving the good-vs-evil mythology. That is how it is presented: Man will needfully be rescued by a mythological figure. As made real in the minds of believers in the most common of ancient stories...St. George and the Dragon, comes immediately to mind. Wikipedia will call up others.

Privlileged as i am to stand at this point in time, rather than at any other, i cannot but feel grateful for doing so. I am not blind to the work yet to be done to bring justice in the world of future humans. Nor am i blind to the progress humans have made in their socia affairs, and in the sciences that have given us comforts--in the broadest sense--and securities undreamed of by the richest of our ancestors of just two centuries ago. Blah, Blah, Blah.... ;-) Just can't help myself!! WOOOOOEEEEE!!!

Charity, you wrote, i added the bold:

I haven't seen any studies or stats on optimism correlated with LDS beliefs. So I won't make any statements on something I don't have data to back up. Unlike other posters here at times.

Come-on Sis, where's yer heart? Where's yer faith? Can you not base action, and response to needs, on your own observations and intelligent decision making? Ya need stats fer everything? Oh fiddle, i forgot, you're, "unlike other posters here"...LOL ;-) Warm regards, Roger

Post by **_charity** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm

Roger Morrison wrote:
And you can't talk around me on this one. RM: Do you think I want to? Threatened? ;-) Learned helplessness, optismism and depression, etc. was my field of study. My master's degree was on it. RM: Congrats! Then I expect some real-good-stuff. And, your degree is in what?

Since active LDS trend to be healthier physically and mentally must mean they are more optimistic. RM: Some certainly are. Not simply by being LDS, but cuz they live the principle/law upon which such health is predicated. Atheist are similarly 'rewarded'. Sort-of, "God" being no respector of persons, or I add, of sects. Don't you agree?

So what is your point? RM: I wasn't specifically attempting to make a "point". I simply thought it worthy of discussion. Seems it is.

[/quote]

Sorry, roger. I got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning. I was a little grumpy. Please accept my apologies. I just took a nap, and I should be nicer now.

My degree is in psychology. I found Selighman's pioneering work on optimism/pessimism fascinating. He heads at it from the behavioral side, rather than the chemical.

About who is healthy and who isn't: I remember this old joke. An eldelry man is being asked by a reporter what he attributed his long life to, and he says, "Clean living, my boy. Clean living." Just then there is a commotion on the back porch and the old man says, "Oh, no, Dad is coming home after another drunken binge."

Now, to your topic: I can see how (without any studies, of course) that religion could go either way, depending on the philsophy. If you were a Calvinist, you would have to be pretty darn sure you were one of the ones pre-destined for salvation in order to be optimistic at all. On the other hand, LDS have a pretty optimistic view, since everybody except those Sons of Perdition make it to what all other denominations call Heaven.

Post by **_Roger Morrison** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:42 am

Good AM Charity, you wrote:

Sorry, roger. I got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning. I was a little grumpy. Please accept my apologies. I just took a nap, and I should be nicer now.

My degree is in psychology. I found Selighman's pioneering work on optimism/pessimism fascinating. He heads at it from the behavioral side, rather than the chemical.

About who is healthy and who isn't: I remember this old joke. An eldelry man is being asked by a reporter what he attributed his long life to, and he says, "Clean living, my boy. Clean living." Just then there is a commotion on the back porch and the old man says, "Oh, no, Dad is coming home after another drunken binge."

Now, to your topic: I can see how (without any studies, of course) that religion could go either way, depending on the philsophy. If you were a Calvinist, you would have to be pretty darn sure you were one of the ones pre-destined for salvation in order to be optimistic at all. On the other hand, LDS have a pretty optimistic view, since everybody except those Sons of Perdition make it to what all other denominations call Heaven.

No problem. We all have our bads LOL! So Selighman suggests conditioning/nurture to be more causal of that tendency than chemical? If so, than i tend to agree. Good nurture can compensate for chemical inbalances to greater, or lessor, degrees depending on the measures of each; i would say.

This is a subject that i too am extemely interested in. In fact it cruxes, "Copulating Luck In Our (Sort-of) Christian World" writen in 2003. Which is why the article refered to in my OP grabed my attention.

You can see how the title of my book ties together the two most significant influences, generally speaking, in an individual's life. And how that effects societies as well, for better or worse.

As for the, "...LDS...optimistic view..." I agree, it seems so on the surface. And, indeed it might have been truer in days-gone-by. However, i don't find it expressed in positive terms today. What i hear is, the world is rippening in iniquity; the last-days are upon us; the Lord is at the door, stand in holy places; ready youself...

This, to me, is most defeatist and contributes to stress, anxiety and worry that is more debilitating than not.

With my LDS background, I am well aware of the LDS sentiment re the Sons of Perdition, et al. And all having glory in one degree or other. In my current personal position of evolution i find such a posit completely untenable. It seems to me, escapist, in denial of evidence to the contary, and based on primitive Egyption theology...

I think we could have some interesting dialogue :-) Warm regards, Roger