Did Joseph Smith marry for love?

[_why me]

Hey Inconceivable,

Abandonment was also very real. These predators left their harems for 2-4 years at a time. What were they doing away from their families?

While the Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, Parley P. Pratt was "prostlyting" in California, he took a mate and married her. She remained married to her legal non-mormon husband.

Her husband finally caught up to him in Arkansas while he was attempting to steal their children - and the husband killed Pratt dead. (Kindof started that whole Mountain Meadows Mess).

How would my wife feel if I came home from a business trip with a concubine? Betrayed, humiliated, cheap, devastated, violated, diseased? Knowing my bride, she would justifiably put her foot down (on a certain apendage) and throw us both out permanently.

What a wicked man that apostle was.

Exactly! The whole "polygamy" thing was nothing more than a ruse for some men to get a harem. To heck with their wives, families, children... so what if these wives are hurt, humiliated, devastated, depressed, demeaned, degraded, or end up with a disease or even die. Many wives were used then disgarded like yesterday's trash... sleeping in caves without so much as a glance or care.

As Thomas Paine said, "Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man."

~dancer~

I doubt it. To be married to more than one woman could be a constant headache. Certainly, going to a prostitute would have been easier. To assume that these guys wanted some ice cream would be an illogical leap. Now that it not to say that some of the marriages was for some ice cream. But that was the exception to the rule. No, a commandment is a commandment and they obeyed.

[_Pokatator]

Imagine this omniscient, omnipotent, omnianything God, who says:
Get as many wife as you can, and no resistance, because comes the flaming sword ...
Then, after an hour:
Stop this practice, if you don't want to come off badly.

Giving a commandment, then saying not to live up?
Here is some problem. With God or with His mouthpieces.
Or with the Scriptures cited above. Or with all of them.

No syllogism, predicate calculus or modal logic.
Only the Scriptures (copypasted from LDS.org) and some fundamental operation of arithmetic.
___ Ludwig from Hungary

No kiddin, Ludwig. Strip away the niceties and you see it for what it is. Joseph, not even waiting until the 7 year itch before he started scratching away, all the while writing God's approval and permission into scripture so fewer would question him.

Hardly Trinity. If Joseph wanted sex, it could have been had. He would only need to get on his horse and go two counties over to Miss Kitty's place. All could be had for a dollar a shot. No problem. Do you really think that Joseph Smith would risk his life for some ice cream? Come on, lets get serious. There were safer ways available for a young buck like Joe Smith.

He risked much to obey this commandment.

why me, do you know anything about envy or coveting? You envy and covet what you see, what is before your very eyes. That was Fanny Alger not Ms. Kitty. Right under Joe's nose day in and day out, right there for his eyes to see. He lusted for her plain and simple. If this was a commandment as you and Joe claim it would have been revealed in a different way. This started with envy, coveting and lust on the part of Joseph Smith. He wrote scripture and made up flaming sword stories as a CYA. I can't believe that people bought that story then or especially now, but then again you are, "why me".


PS Welcome to the board ludwigm

[_Pokatator]

Can you imagine a Viagra commercial circa 1830s?

"If you experience an erection lasting longer than 4 hours,

seek another wife."

[_Jason Bourne]

Joseph was obviously not sealed to Emma at the time of the Fanny Alger marriage either. The Prophet was commanded by God to practice the doctrine as part of the restoration of all things.

Well there you go. This totally makes sense. Since he was not sealed to her it was quite fine for him to go and commit adultery and then try to cover it up with some sort of restoration of Polygamy. Sheesh!!! Why didn't I think of that.

But maybe GAx, just maybe, HE COMMITTED adultery. And all this other plural marriage mess resulted from trying to justify that. Oh what a tangled web....

Asking God why the prophets of the past practiced Plural marriage ( Read this more accurately as Plural Families) He was told that upon being taught the principle, he would then have to live it.

LDS Plural marriage is really quite different from what was practiced in the Old Testament. First, it was never a commandment. Second, it was never tied to exaltation or getting into heaven. Just does not work. It is a poor apologetic.

In both cases, the women took Josephs Name upon themselves. Think of this as a preparatory gospel to beign properly sealed in the Temple. The Doctrine is the same in a temporal sense. How the Husband cares for those who bear his name is a testimony to his worthiness before the Lord.

That the sealing power and authority of Elijah had not yet been restored is a moot point.

Nah, it was just adultery, plain and simple. And you know what? I could forgive Joseph for that. People mess up all the time. King David certainly did and he murdered on top of that. According the the Bible (I know the D&C says something different about David) GOd forgave him of these sins. He could forgive Jospeh too. I hope he does if Joseph really repented of plural marriage like William Marks claims he did just before Joseph was murdered.

[_Jason Bourne]

Hey Inconceivable,

Abandonment was also very real. These predators left their harems for 2-4 years at a time. What were they doing away from their families?

While the Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, Parley P. Pratt was "prostlyting" in California, he took a mate and married her. She remained married to her legal non-mormon husband.

Her husband finally caught up to him in Arkansas while he was attempting to steal their children - and the husband killed Pratt dead. (Kindof started that whole Mountain Meadows Mess).

How would my wife feel if I came home from a business trip with a concubine? Betrayed, humiliated, cheap, devastated, violated, diseased? Knowing my bride, she would justifiably put her foot down (on a certain apendage) and throw us both out permanently.

What a wicked man that apostle was.

Exactly! The whole "polygamy" thing was nothing more than a ruse for some men to get a harem. To heck with their wives, families, children... so what if these wives are hurt, humiliated, devastated, depressed, demeaned, degraded, or end up with a disease or even die. Many wives were used then disgarded like yesterday's trash... sleeping in caves without so much as a glance or care.

As Thomas Paine said, "Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man."

~dancer~

I doubt it. To be married to more than one woman could be a constant headache. Certainly, going to a prostitute would have been easier. To assume that these guys wanted some ice cream would be an illogical leap. Now that it not to say that some of the marriages was for some ice cream. But that was the exception to the rule. No, a commandment is a commandment and they obeyed.

But going to a prostitute made is a SIN. Using the maze of plural marriage made it not a SIN in their minds. Even though it still was.

[_Trinity]

Hey Inconceivable,

Abandonment was also very real. These predators left their harems for 2-4 years at a time. What were they doing away from their families?

While the Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, Parley P. Pratt was "prostlyting" in California, he took a mate and married her. She remained married to her legal non-mormon husband.

Her husband finally caught up to him in Arkansas while he was attempting to steal their children - and the husband killed Pratt dead. (Kindof started that whole Mountain Meadows Mess).

How would my wife feel if I came home from a business trip with a concubine? Betrayed, humiliated, cheap, devastated, violated, diseased? Knowing my bride, she would justifiably put her foot down (on a certain apendage) and throw us both out permanently.

What a wicked man that apostle was.

Exactly! The whole "polygamy" thing was nothing more than a ruse for some men to get a harem. To heck with their wives, families, children... so what if these wives are hurt, humiliated, devastated, depressed, demeaned, degraded, or end up with a disease or even die. Many wives were used then disgarded like yesterday's trash... sleeping in caves without so much as a glance or care.

As Thomas Paine said, "Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man."

~dancer~

I doubt it. To be married to more than one woman could be a constant headache. Certainly, going to a prostitute would have been easier. To assume that these guys wanted some ice cream would be an illogical leap. Now that it not to say that some of the marriages was for some ice cream. But that was the exception to the rule. No, a commandment is a commandment and they obeyed.

But going to a prostitute made is a SIN. Using the maze of plural marriage made it not a SIN in their minds. Even though it still was.

Not to mention ordinary and average. Any man could just go out and get a prostitute. But not Joseph. Joseph was anything but ordinary or average in his approach to most things.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Why Me ... :-)

I doubt it. To be married to more than one woman could be a constant headache. Certainly, going to a prostitute would have been easier. To assume that these guys wanted some ice cream would be an illogical leap. Now that it not to say that some of the marriages was for some ice cream. But that was the exception to the rule. No, a commandment is a commandment and they obeyed.

My impression is that Joseph Smith wanted not only women but power and glory! His religion was really all about it... he crowned himself King of the Earth (or whatever), and his story was ALL about being a God, ruling and reigning, having worlds without end.

He is not the first man in history who used women as a way to fill his insatiable need for fame and power... and sex.

~dancer~

[_wenglund]

Well, like you, I am not intollerant of misspellings. I am dismissing your comments out of hand, though I think you realize that.

Again, without avoiding the issue this next time, please go ahead and marry another 32 wives, some minors, some already married to other men, and then come and discuss the issue. Otherwise, your very quotidian experience, vis-a-vis Joseph Smith's is completely and utterly irrelevant.

we both accept as divine the revelations he received (including those dealing with marriage), we were about the same age, we are both male, we both were contemplating marriage, and in our contemplations of marriage, we both had various reasons for wanting to marry as well as to not marry, we were both considering marrying a woman that was still married to (or at least in my case, still sealed to, though divorced from) her husband.

Or, to your mind, is marrying a divorced woman (your only, singular wife) really analogous to marrying 32 other women, some of which were not just "sealed" to other men, but actually married to them, in a legally-recognized way, and some of which were minors?

Germane Hint: No, it's not. I'm completely ready, willing, and able to dismiss your irrelevant comments out of hand, if only for the simple fact that they are irrelevant to the question at hand--despite any and all superficial parallels you might adduce that have nothing to do with the fact that you are not a polygamist and are not married to 32 other women beside your currently legally-recognized wife.

Get it?

Yes, I think I do get it. You have closed your mind to other reasonable and relevant points of view. That is your choice. Closed-mindedness isn't a tactic that I find works very well in interfaith discussion, but I understand that you may have your prejudices to protect, and so it may work for you. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Hi Why Me ... :-)

I doubt it. To be married to more than one woman could be a constant headache. Certainly, going to a prostitute would have been easier. To assume that these guys wanted some ice cream would be an illogical leap. Now that it not to say that some of the marriages was for some ice cream. But that was the exception to the rule. No, a commandment is a commandment and they obeyed.

My impression is that Joseph Smith wanted not only women but power and glory! His religion was really all about it... he crowned himself King of the Earth (or whatever), and his story was ALL about being a God, ruling and reigning, having worlds without end.

He is not the first man in history who used women as a way to fill his insatiable need for fame and power... and sex.

~dancer~

As I understand things, men in history have done a lot of the same things, though for different reasons. Not all men who rise to power and fame did so because they were seeking such, though many may well have. As such, I am not sure it prudent to look at specific actions and behaviors (like Joseph's polygamous sealings), particularly where there is little direct evidence to go on, and then judge a persons character and motives. In other words, I don't think stereotypical mind-reading is all that beneficial.

For example, I think a strong case could be made to suggest that some people got into therapy because they were mentally deranged and wished to prey on the vulnerable. If so, then would it be fair to make that the basis for concluding that since you have gotten into therapy, you did so because you were deranged and wish to prey on the vulnerable? I certainly don't think so. I believe you were likely motivated in worthy and healthy ways. And, if you can grant that for yourself, then wouldn't the Golden Rule suggest that you do the same from Joseph (I am speaking here in terms of judging motives, not in terms of specific actions)?

Just something to think about.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Mercury]

...we both had various reasons for wanting to marry as well as to not marry...

I bet I know what they were for you. My gaydar just spiked.