1 Nephi 14:10-12 'There are save two churchds only'

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_charity
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Post by _charity »

harmony wrote:My point, charity, which obviously went 'way over your head, is that on this board we don't tell people what they are, what they believe, what they know. On this board, we allow people to be who they are without us telling them.

And Kevin knows. As do I. As does Liz. As do many of us here who are not your standard run-of-the-mill member. We don't forget and we don't lose any ability to understand anything, least of all our ability to understand spiritual things. You, on the other hand, show a remarkable ability to know the hearts of strangers, even though we both know only God knows that. You're overstepping your abilities, charity. Not that I'd expect anything else from you, but still... one can hope for improvement.


I guess I assumed from all the telling me what I thought and who I was that this was not only allowed, but encouraged. Okay, just to clear up the confusion. Is your instruction just for me and other TBM's, or is every poster of whatever persuasion held to the same standard?
_Zoidberg
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Post by _Zoidberg »

charity wrote:
Zoidberg wrote: I would really expect better knowledge of the Book of Mormon from you, given all the time you've had to study it. What about this:

I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth (1 Nephi 14:12)?


I read this to be symbolic, in the way that wrath is poured out, and the devli wages a war. I don't see any big jar pouring out anything, and I don't see a war with battlelines and bombs, etc. Many times doctrinal truths are taught through symbolism.


Really? I stand corrected. I probably should remind you what you were saying (and presumably thinking) a short time ago. You really can't see past your huge consistency bias. You didn't start out claiming anything symbolic.

You said:

Only those churches which fight against God and Christ are of the church of the devil. I suppose you make the evaluation of your own church.


Or is your understanding of the church of the Lamb of God symbolic, but your understanding of the church of the devil literal? It's making my head spin. I suppose you are using the spirit of discernment here, too.

If you read the whole chapter, you see that he's talking about future events that are to happen on Earth. I think it's pretty clear. There are obviously metaphors, but how can you deny the fact that the church of the devil and the church of the lamb of God are mentioned coexisting on Earth? So I think it's reasonable to conclude that they will coexist in some realm at some point in time; I doubt that those in the church of the devil will outnumber those in the church of the Lamb of God in the afterlife, or else you would have to retract your statement of the scarcity of sons of perdition, so I have to assume he's talking about some earthly events.

Feel free to think it's all going to be in heaven, but then retract your statement that there those "of the church of the devil" currently on Earth. Or at least explain how you've made this arbitrary distinction.

I could be wrong. But that is the way I read it. A perfectly reasonable interpretation. I have said before, one of the characteristics of these types of arguments is rigidity. You think I have to read that passage exaclty as you do because you are right.


I don't think it's a reasonable interpretation, and I'm sure a lot of people would agree with me. McConkie who you recently cited, by the way, was a big fan of literalism. He took Isaiah 4:1 to mean that polygamy will be reinstated in the Millennium. He also did say that the great and abominable church was the Cathoolic church, but you are using your gift of discernment to sort out what's right and what's not. Apparently, it's better than his. It's interesting that you want to accuse me of literalism and inability to move past concrete operational thought given that you value McConkie's interpretations.

But feel free to interpret this passage however you want. It is certainly your right. Just don't contradict yourself, that's all I'm asking.
"reason and religion are friends and allies" - Mitt Romney
_ludwigm
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Post by _ludwigm »

1.
Only for the records: I am Roman Catholic, from my birth.
OK, from my three days age. That day I was baptized with my presence and without my consent.
When I was 12, I DID decide not to take part in any man-managed church, religion, sect.
Now, I have nothing to do with RCism.
But:
The word "whore" should not be substituted by any other.
The whole verse mentioned should be deleted, repudiated, take Your other picks. (My native is hungarian, there should be more words fit)
The whole verse mentioned should be deleted, with many other verse and chapter, which are offensive, senseless, misleading, lie or any other combination of these. After this, there would be remained one A4 page with double line spacing. Or a little less.

This is my objection to 1 Nephi 14:10-12, as the starting comment has it asked.

2.
charity wrote:
Someone who has had religious training and has a tradition of worship and service? Or an absolute libertine who has not a clue about religion or what it means to live by a moral code?
2007.10.26 06:36:49 GMT+1

Zoidberg wrote:
Also, you are the one who suggested that absolute libertines have no idea how to live by a moral code, so I'm not the one here who thinks that there are groups of people who are not in possession of any moral code. Do you even remember what you yourself have said?
2007.10.29 05:17:15 GMT+1

charity wrote:
I didn't say that. I said who was more likley to subscribe to a moral code.
2007.10.29 07:11:11 GMT+1

I know people, who don't read, don't listen or don't care others opinion before react them. But to not read their own ones ...

3.
For You, in US, the word "socialism" is a bogeyman. Unfortunately, we in East-Europe, lived in it for decades, even in the wildest socialism were not as many yes-man (and yes-woman) as in CJCLDS.
And in the socialism it wasn't compulsory to fast and pray before any "yes". // The fast was permanent :-(

___ Ludwig from Hungary
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Zoidberg
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Post by _Zoidberg »

ludwigm wrote:
charity wrote:
Someone who has had religious training and has a tradition of worship and service? Or an absolute libertine who has not a clue about religion or what it means to live by a moral code?
2007.10.26 06:36:49 GMT+1

Zoidberg wrote:
Also, you are the one who suggested that absolute libertines have no idea how to live by a moral code, so I'm not the one here who thinks that there are groups of people who are not in possession of any moral code. Do you even remember what you yourself have said?
2007.10.29 05:17:15 GMT+1

charity wrote:
I didn't say that. I said who was more likley to subscribe to a moral code.
2007.10.29 07:11:11 GMT+1

I know people, who don't read, don't listen or don't care others opinion before react them. But to not read their own ones ...



Thanks, ludwig, for pointing that out. Hopefully, charity will finally read her own posts. One can hope...

Also, give me a high five! We Eastern Europeans have got to stick together among people who don't know the difference between socialism, communism and satanism.:)
"reason and religion are friends and allies" - Mitt Romney
_Zoidberg
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Post by _Zoidberg »

charity wrote:]You probably missed the part about symbolism there, too. I am beginning Old Testament see a pattern. But even then, no church was named. And we already knew that the professors of the creeds were corrupt.


I wonder what part I missed. Just because you call everyone else Satan's minions without directly pointing out names and organizations doesn't mean it's not an insult or means something other than what it looks like it means.

We don't send our missionaries out to teach against gay rights legislation and abortion rights, either.


But if the investigator converts, they will be expected to adopt those positions, won't they? And if they ask the mishies what the Church's positions on gay rights and abortion are, I suppose they would tell them. If the investigator is doing his/her job the way you think they should, they will find out about the Church's positions on these things pretty quickly, and will put two and two together. Teaching someone that they would be better off for joining a church that teaches non-acceptance of actively gay people and the pro-choice stance is equivalent to directly teaching them that.

To use your own example, I could probably tell you of all the advantages of being a NEA member without mentioning that they have a gay caucus. I suppose you would not feel cheated when you joined, paid the membership fees and then found out you were indirectly supporting the gay caucus.
"reason and religion are friends and allies" - Mitt Romney
_Zoidberg
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Post by _Zoidberg »

charity wrote:You think you can say anything you want about dead people who aren't here to defend themselves. I think you should get back some of what you are so willing to dish out.


My statements about Brigham's wives, for instance, are based on his ex-wife's book. Of course, she's just an anti-mormon liar, and charity knows better than her what went on there even though Ann Eliza was there to witness it and charity wasn't. Of course.

What about the testimonies of Joseph Smith's wives who said they've had sex with him? Or the story with Fanny Alger which was referred to as a "dirty, nasty, filthy affair"? Of course, it's easier for you to think I'm projecting.

And before you make a psychological assessment you should know the psychology you are basing your assessment on. In this case, you don't, so your assessment has no basis in fact.


Oh, don't I? I guess I'm making no sense when I hypothesize that indifference to sex or inability to achieve orgasm don't exactly help in the bonding between spouses department or feeling passionate, romantic love and desire for each other. If no romantic love is involved and the relationship is based more on other factors, such as mutual respect and common goals in bringing forth children, for instance, it would be much easier to accept the idea of your husband being married and eternally having sex with other women. Interestingly, Zina D. Jacobs Smith Young said: "a successful polygamous wife must regard her husband with indifference, and with no other feeling than that of reverence, for love we regard as a false sentiment; a feeling which should have no existence in polygamy."

Yes, I never get tired of pulling ideas out of my butt. In fact, that's all I ever do.

Lighten up. I thought you would find Mark Twain at least a little humerous.


I like Mark Twain, but he has nothing to do whatsoever with this discussion.

I hope all married people enjoy their sex lives. And your descriptions of anything Brigham Young tought or did are so far from correct. Harmony is saying on another post, how people on this board don't m ake judgements and assessments about people. You stop doing that about the prophets, and I won't hold your feet to the fire.


How are they far from correct? As I have said, I'm basing my opinions on an account of an eye-witness. And she's not the only one who's ever said that BY had favorite wives he slept with often and wives who fell out of favor after he married someone else.

Sorry for the gender confusion. I didn't think a woman would use a disrespectful representation of the female for an avatar.


Talk about inablility to understand symbolism. It's a symbolic representation of the disrespectful treatment that women have received from society throughout history that reduces them to their reproductive systems. The LDS Church is continuing to contribute. And I think it's great art. Even Chaos from MAD liked it despite asking me to remove it. To avoid offending people like you, I'm sure.

Okay. so you are female. And since you have a husband, ask him if he would like it if you were to hug, kiss, etc. attractive males, and then try to convince him it was non-sexual. If he would accept that, he must be very naïve.


I've hugged my male friends in front of him and I don't think he suspects any dirty intentions on my part there. I think that tabooing any physical contact or interaction with everyone of the opposite sex except your spouse after you are married is where projecting repressed sexual desires really takes place. But that's beyond the point because I was talking about two single people who feel attraction towards each other kissing and hugging. I guess I should have made it explicitly clear that I mean one single person with SSA hugging/kissing/complimenting another single person with SSA, not a married person. Silly me to think it's understandable it's implied.

Of course, people have prejudices. It is part of our hard wiring. A way to protect our own group and genetic pool. We have to work really hard not to think in us vs them terms. But you will find very few churches or other groups who have taught as consistently against bias than we have. Joseph Smith urged religious tolerance. (And got back none in return.) And if you want to talk about racial bias, try looking at southern churches to this day. Segregated for the most part.


The LDS Church was segregated in terms of who was allowed to go to the temple and who wasn't until fairly recently. It also disapproves of intermarriage. Of course, the excuse given now is that you are more likely to be compatible with someone from your own racial background *rolls eyes*. If background mattered so much, why did americans marry British converts during the time BY was threatening everyone who "mixed their seed with the seed of Cain" with death on the spot?

Saying "All the critics of the Book of Mormon will eventually be proven wrong, so we can be pretty open-minded" is not indicative of any bias. At all. After all, you identify yourself as an open-minded person.

charity wrote:Agency yes. Consequences of those choices, no.


And what would be the super-harmful consequences of two people being legally married if they are already living together anyway? All the excuses given about harful influence on society and children I've heard are pretty lame.

Do you complain that the existence of the 10 commandments violates people's beliefs? Gosh, don't steal. Now, isn't that limiting all those people who want to take your property? And how about the commandment not to committ adultery. What a put down for all those people who want to cheat on their spouses. I don't see a difference.


I see a difference. An individual is sovereign of their body and property. Their consent is required for manipulating either. In the case of infidelity, cheating is harmful because it violates the agreement between the spouses and betrays trust. I do think that consensual open marriages are ethical, however. There is a difference.

Jesus spoke against homosexuality Himself.


He did? Where?
"reason and religion are friends and allies" - Mitt Romney
_Zoidberg
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Post by _Zoidberg »

charity wrote:It is part of the disrespect package. I know when we are shooting off posts back and forth, maybe it is easy not to take the time to see what the words are doing. I didn't see why you found it necessary to bring that up. And why I decided you were placing an emphasis on attractiveness? From what you said about what was wrong with a mentally functioning, attractive person having a homosexual relationship. And unattractive people are somehow different? I think you have biases about attractiveness from what you are saying. Or else you would have not even brought attractiveness into the circumstance.


Let me explain myself once again. I was referring to the usual lame arguments about how many people stay single their whole lives and are expected to remain celibate. So I was refuting that by saying they at least have the hope of getting married, and many do, hence I brought up the second wives of DHO and Russell M. Nelson. But many gay people (and now, finally, the Church leaders) realize they will never be able to feel attracted to the opposite sex in this life, which means no intimacy at all, not even hugging or kissing the ones you are attracted to, which single straight people can do even if they don't end up marrying whomever they are kissing.

I didn't just say "attractive", I also said "otherwise desirable", which you have chosen to disregard. Attractive can also refer to something other than physically attractive. That you chose to interpret my statement this way says more about you than about me. I was just thinking of reasons why some people who want to find a partner have difficulties doing so. Lesser degree of attractiveness came to mind, along with other factors. This has nothing to do with who deserves to get married and who doesn't. Do you find the LDS-coined term "sweet spirit" offensive, by the way? I kind of do, actually.

You might also find it shocking that many GAs, including your favorite McConkie have mentioned a significant criterion on deciding who to marry was finding them attractive. Since the basic attitudes about what constitutes physical attractiveness tend to be roughly the same cross-culturally, it's rather natural to assume that some people have a better chance of finding a partner than others. Are you trying to deny that?

Homosexual behavior is a sin. There is no double standard.


So where does homosexual behavior begin? Is saying the word "fabulous" a lot sinful homosexual behavior? It's not sinful for straight people to hug and kiss, only sexual intercourse or something short of it is sinful for them. But it is sinful for gay people to hug and kiss and okay to get kicked out of BYU for that?

Give me a break! When I paid my tuition, I bought teacher and staff time, building rental, etc. I did not pay for the Gay Pride parade, pamphlets espousing the gay agenda. I don't know what you are thinking. What is the purpose of Portland State University? Educating students. What is the purpose of PFLAG? To support homosexuality. A portion of the dues, even if small, which go to the NEA supports the gav rights caucus. You really can't see the difference?


But by paying towards teacher and staff time, building rental, etc. you were indirectly enabling actively gay people to receive higher education, which would help them further their "gay agenda" because they would be more informed, more influential, make more money to spend on their causes. Perhaps they would even do graduate work at the school you went to, become permanent members of the professoriat and influence the climate at the school by promoting tolerance and acceptance of gay lifestyle. With you contribution. You should have gone to BYU where they kick gay people out for kissing each other. Or you should have protested against allowing gay students to go to PSU.

If a person is not mentally capable of making a choice, they are let off the hook. But God knows how much they are responsible for. We don't.


Then why are you making a judgement about people whose light of Christ supposedly doesn't shine anymore?

I didn't see any of your argument showing an understanding of the basis of theory on moral development. If you do know the theory and just aren't mentioning anything to do with it, I am sorry for making a wrong assumption. You are familiar with Kohlberg and Gilligan?


Considering that they teach that in Intro to Psych, it would really be a miracle if I weren't.

It seems that many religious believers are stuck in the pre-conventional stage as defined by Kohlberg because they think that external motivation is necessary in order to not rape and pillage left and right.


Very simplistic view of moral development. Was that the wiki version?


Oh yes, that's where I get all my information. What is so simplistic about it, pray tell? I've just recently watched Dawkins' documentary in which one of the religious educators he interviews expresses this precise idea. The reasoning of people in this stage is supposed to be simplistic and based on self-interest and accepting authority, but what does it have to do with my understanding of it?

Remember when Gilligan was doing her studies. And how far that came from the traditional theories of moral development at the time.


I think her input is very valuable, but it doesn't mean we should accept it as the ultimate reality.

charity wrote:
Also, you are the one who suggested that absolute libertines have no idea how to live by a moral code, so I'm not the one here who thinks that there are groups of people who are not in possession of any moral code. Do you even remember what you yourself have said?


I didn't say that. I said who was more likley to subscribe to a moral code.


Ludwig kindly provided you a reminder of what you actually said upthread. Hopefully, that will refresh your memory.
"reason and religion are friends and allies" - Mitt Romney
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Charity the following is a perfect example as to why you’re too dim-witted to argue with. You keep rearranging the arguments as you keep backing yourself into your own corner.

I said McConkie didn’t publish his comments when he was an apostle; his comments which attack the Catholic Church as the whore of babylon. This remains a fact, yet you thought you caught me in an error based on your own ignorance of the publication history. Now that I have educates you on the matter, instead of feeling completely like an idiot, as you should, your confirmation bias goes into overdrive as you employ yet another logical fallacy (red herring) to reward yourself with soothing feelings.

And it was revised. Did you miss that part? You could change your mind about something. Don't you allow anyone else the same privilege? Nice history on the publicaiton of the book. But it just shows, you don't understand the meaning of the different revisions. And the way in which LDS view the statements of men, even General Authorities, which are not scripture. You are more educated that most former Mormons. But you don't seem to understand this.


What the hell are you talking about?

If you had discourse like this in real life I’d suggest you get psychological treatment. It’s like I’m talking to Sybil. This issue has nothing to do with the “understanding and meaning of different revisions.” Everyone reading this knows this.

I am not criticizing McConkie for changing his book. Any kid with minimal comprehension skills can see that, if anything, I was taking an apologetic stance and not holding his comments against him or the Church because he was not “prophet seer and revelator” at the time he made them. Subsequent revisions by the Church are irrelevant to this point of fact. But you’re too dumb to realize this and are obviously more interested in arguing about every little point, even when it is in your best interest to just sit back and shut up.

I don't know if Kevin has resigned, been excommunicated or what.


No I haven’t.

But from his posts here, and on other boards, he is not simply inactive.


I’m inactive as far as tithe paying goes, and having a traditional testimony (I believe the Book of Mormon is inspired but not history) But I still attend and take part in Church activities. I guess you could say I have downgraded myself to cultural Mormonism. The irony is that most Mormons are cultural Mormons. Meaning, they show up for social reasons not because they actually know anything about Mormonism. They know squat about LDS doctrine and Church history.

He presents himself like an apostate. He gives his history as LDS, then presents arguments directly opposing Church doctrine and leaders. That is what apostates do. If his name is still on the books, it is a technicality. Ask Kevin if you don't believe me.


Tell it to my bishop and ask him if he thinks I should be excommunicated. His name is Isaac Cain. He is constantly being told by other gospel teachers that I’m the most knowledgeable person there. He is trying to get me to hold a calling even though I told him my testimony-free status makes me unworthy.

Knowing and understanding are two different things.


True, but you have neither knowledge nor understanding. You’re an apologetic rhetoric machine, nothing more. The data doesn’t interest you.

Once a person loses the spirit, or has never had the spirit, or refuses to be tutored by the spirit, they lose their ability to understand spiritual things.


This spiritual garbage is just circular reasoning wrapped in a funnel. It is the TBM’s ever faithful scape-goat gambit. You rely on something that is psychologically explainable, and create this ridiculous paradigm of spirituality where everyone who disagrees with you is unspiritual and everyone who does must be spiritual. With this kind of brain-dead standard of logic, who needs to think?

And it is funny how you completely abandoned the discussion when I presented the scientific facts from your own alleged field of expertise.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Charity the following is a perfect example as to why you’re too dim-witted to argue with. You keep rearranging the arguments as you keep backing yourself into your own corner.

I said McConkie didn’t publish his comments when he was an apostle; his comments which attack the Catholic Church as the whore of babylon. This remains a fact, yet you thought you caught me in an error based on your own ignorance of the publication history. Now that I have educates you on the matter, instead of feeling completely like an idiot, as you should, your confirmation bias goes into overdrive as you employ yet another logical fallacy (red herring) to reward yourself with soothing feelings.

And it was revised. Did you miss that part? You could change your mind about something. Don't you allow anyone else the same privilege? Nice history on the publicaiton of the book. But it just shows, you don't understand the meaning of the different revisions. And the way in which LDS view the statements of men, even General Authorities, which are not scripture. You are more educated that most former Mormons. But you don't seem to understand this.


What the hell are you talking about?

If you had discourse like this in real life I’d suggest you get psychological treatment. It’s like I’m talking to Sybil. This issue has nothing to do with the “understanding and meaning of different revisions.” Everyone reading this knows this.

I am not criticizing McConkie for changing his book. Any kid with minimal comprehension skills can see that, if anything, I was taking an apologetic stance and not holding his comments against him or the Church because he was not “prophet seer and revelator” at the time he made them. Subsequent revisions by the Church are irrelevant to this point of fact. But you’re too dumb to realize this and are obviously more interested in arguing about every little point, even when it is in your best interest to just sit back and shut up.

I don't know if Kevin has resigned, been excommunicated or what.


No I haven’t.

But from his posts here, and on other boards, he is not simply inactive.


I’m inactive as far as tithe paying goes, and having a traditional testimony (I believe the Book of Mormon is inspired but not history) But I still attend and take part in Church activities. I guess you could say I have downgraded myself to cultural Mormonism. The irony is that most Mormons are cultural Mormons. Meaning, they show up for social reasons not because they actually know anything about Mormonism. They know squat about LDS doctrine and Church history.

He presents himself like an apostate. He gives his history as LDS, then presents arguments directly opposing Church doctrine and leaders. That is what apostates do. If his name is still on the books, it is a technicality. Ask Kevin if you don't believe me.


Tell it to my bishop and ask him if he thinks I should be excommunicated. His name is Isaac Cain. He is constantly being told by other gospel teachers that I’m the most knowledgeable person there. He is trying to get me to hold a calling even though I told him my testimony-free status makes me unworthy.

Knowing and understanding are two different things.


True, but you have neither knowledge nor understanding. You’re an apologetic rhetoric machine, nothing more. The data doesn’t interest you.

Once a person loses the spirit, or has never had the spirit, or refuses to be tutored by the spirit, they lose their ability to understand spiritual things.


This spiritual garbage is just circular reasoning wrapped in a funnel. It is the TBM’s ever faithful scape-goat gambit. You rely on something that is psychologically explainable, and create this ridiculous paradigm of spirituality where everyone who disagrees with you is unspiritual and everyone who does must be spiritual. With this kind of brain-dead standard of logic, who needs to think?

And it is funny how you completely abandoned the discussion when I presented the scientific facts from your own alleged field of expertise.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Roger Morrison
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Re: 1 Nephi 14:10-12 'There are save two churchds only'

Post by _Roger Morrison »

charity wrote:1 Ne. 14: 10-12 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

What is your objection to this?


My thought is: that statement, if it was ever audible, and not the figment of an imaginative writer, was made by a person with knowledge limited by the times in which he spoke. As such, today it is seen as the simplistic, illogical--possibly well intended, at the time--bit of paternalistic nonsense that it is. Black OR white! No neutral ground. How absurde. It really is laughable.

My objection is, that it is taught to be a true reality. That some believe(d) that teaching is also a reality that lays serious questions to both the teachers and believers. But, freedoms today, generally speaking, allow one to believe as they choose. So be it... Warm regards, Roger
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