David Bokovoy and a Kuhnian Approach to Mormonism

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_cksalmon
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Post by _cksalmon »

Runtu wrote:
cksalmon wrote:It seems that what David is saying, fundamentally, is that his underlying paradigm will never change. Given his spiritual witness, it will always be the case that Book of Mormon is true, etc. When he speaks of "paradigm shift," he seems to mean a reimagining of secondary issues such that the primary paradigm is never allowed to be contradicted.

This is far from a thorough-going embracing of the possibilty of true "paradigm shift." This is paradigm maintenance.

This is clear when David suggests that "pardigm shift" is a much better option than denying one's spiritual witness.

Paradigm maintenance.

CKS


Well, that's Kuhn's main thesis: we aren't in the business of discovering new things, but rather maintaining our current paradigms of belief. It's when those "crises of faith" (Kuhn's term) occur when we see anomalies that our belief system can't explain, we have to restructure the paradigm just enough to accommodate the anomaly.

Judging by David's post and the response to it, I'd say Kuhn was onto something.


I'll definitely take your word for it, as I've read a mere pittance of Kuhn's work. I was (mis?)remembering something from the secondary literature that spoke of the arising of a "new" paradigm after a certain critical tipping point of accumulated evidence has been reached and has rendered the "old" paradigm untenable for certain thinkers in a given field.

I ddin't think that merely restructuring a paradigm to accomodate new evidence or observations was the most radical instance of a Kuhnian paradigm shift.

Or, perhaps my version just reflects the way in which the concept has been mangled in its entrance into popular parlance?

CKS
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

No. He said never abandon the spiritual wintess. That isn't a paradigm.

Of course it's a paradigm. The paradigm defines the meaning of the spiritual witness.


No, it's a truth which remains true no matter what the paradigm (as all truth does). For example, there remains no evidence against Book of Mormon historicity and plenty of evidence for it as an ancient document. The temple endowment has always contained suprising similarities to early Christian esoteric rites.

The ground (pardigm) shifts a little from time to time on these and other things, but the essential truths remain the same.

The real question however is whether or not your own paradigm is a superceeding paradigm that accomodates all other paradigms. In other words, the super black and white. Mine can and therefore it does not matter what paradigm is presented to me, truth remains truth and does not change.
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_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

This all assumes, that a 'spiritual witness' is what it is, right?
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_charity
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Post by _charity »

bcspace wrote:
No, it's a truth which remains true no matter what the paradigm (as all truth does). For example, there remains no evidence against Book of Mormon historicity and plenty of evidence for it as an ancient document. The temple endowment has always contained suprising similarities to early Christian esoteric rites.

The ground (pardigm) shifts a little from time to time on these and other things, but the essential truths remain the same.

The real question however is whether or not your own paradigm is a superceeding paradigm that accomodates all other paradigms. In other words, the super black and white. Mine can and therefore it does not matter what paradigm is presented to me, truth remains truth and does not change.


Nicely said. I can't add to or improve on this.
_evolving
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Post by _evolving »

wiki wrote:Perhaps the greatest barrier to a paradigm shift, in some cases, is the reality of paradigm paralysis, the inability to see beyond the current models of thinking.


is the Church(at least the LDS inc. side) in the business of "paradigm paralysis" ? -

things I have never heard in church -
- it's alright if you don't believe in a literal Adam and Eve. the temple is all allegorical anyway.
- the Noah story is based loosely on an oral tradition, and has a lot of allegorical benefit.
- the similarities in world religions all have roots in mythical traditions that predate our version of Christianity - so is is not surprising kristhna - buddah - mithra - and quetzalcoatl share characteristics that are strikingly similar to this dude named Horus. it is all just a belief right..
- Joseph Smith gathered themes and beliefs from his upbringing and surrounding culture. He incorporated these beliefs with other things he learned while studing Hebrew and created himself a religion.


Mormonisim may be the best thing in the world - but, if it is not what it repeatedly claims to be(one and only true church...) -- it is at best another corporate belief system - at worst a damnable fraud - perpetuating myths and lies to maintain control over it's members. telling fairy tales to believing members for self preservation.
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

This all assumes, that a 'spiritual witness' is what it is, right?


Either it is or it isn't (the super black and white).

Since I don't second-guess one's spiritual witness (though I may classify it as good, evil, emotional, or gastric if given enough information) one can only assume.
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

Who Knows wrote:This all assumes, that a 'spiritual witness' is what it is, right?


I guess I should read the thread before commenting. I see that runtu has basically already said what I was thinking.

carry on...
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

bcspace wrote:
For example, there remains no evidence against Book of Mormon historicity and plenty of evidence for it as an ancient document.


Oh c'mon, you just have to be joking . . . don't you?

Jesus Hildebrant Christ, give me some of what this dude is smoking.

This has to rate as one the the single most asinine statements I've ever read on this or any other discussion board. Not even Wade could come close to beating this one.

Oh yeah, that's right, let me guess, you have a "preponderance" of evidence?

Tell ya what, let's submit this "plenty of evidence" to a random panel of actual scholars (of the non-Mormon, non-apologist variety) and see if they agree.

I really like my chances on this one.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_charity
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Post by _charity »

evolving wrote:
wiki wrote:Perhaps the greatest barrier to a paradigm shift, in some cases, is the reality of paradigm paralysis, the inability to see beyond the current models of thinking.


is the Church(at least the LDS inc. side) in the business of "paradigm paralysis" ? -

things I have never heard in church -
- it's alright if you don't believe in a literal Adam and Eve. the temple is all allegorical anyway.
- the Noah story is based loosely on an oral tradition, and has a lot of allegorical benefit.
- the similarities in world religions all have roots in mythical traditions that predate our version of Christianity - so is is not surprising kristhna - buddah - mithra - and quetzalcoatl share characteristics that are strikingly similar to this dude named Horus. it is all just a belief right..
- Joseph Smith gathered themes and beliefs from his upbringing and surrounding culture. He incorporated these beliefs with other things he learned while studing Hebrew and created himself a religion.


Mormonisim may be the best thing in the world - but, if it is not what it repeatedly claims to be(one and only true church...) -- it is at best another corporate belief system - at worst a damnable fraud - perpetuating myths and lies to maintain control over it's members. telling fairy tales to believing members for self preservation.


Some of those things you have never heard in Church is because you didn't happen to be in the right place at the right time. I have heard the Adam and Eve, Noah thing you mentioned.

You won't hear the similarities in religions pre-date Christianity because it isn't true. Christianity started in the allegorical or not Garden of Eden. Human religious history started there. Can't get an earlier than that.

And of course, you won't hear that Joseph Smith made up the Restoration. DUH on that one.
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

bcspace wrote:No, it's a truth which remains true no matter what the paradigm (as all truth does). For example, there remains no evidence against Book of Mormon historicity and plenty of evidence for it as an ancient document. The temple endowment has always contained suprising similarities to early Christian esoteric rites.

The ground (pardigm) shifts a little from time to time on these and other things, but the essential truths remain the same.

The real question however is whether or not your own paradigm is a superceeding paradigm that accomodates all other paradigms. In other words, the super black and white. Mine can and therefore it does not matter what paradigm is presented to me, truth remains truth and does not change.


A paradigm is a way of looking at the world. Your paradigm insists that certain experiences are spiritual in nature and testify of truth. You seem to want to argue that your "truth" paradigm accommodates all other paradigms, but then you insist it isn't a paradigm.

I'm not knocking your paradigm. As I said, if it works for you, it works. But to insist that it's no paradigm is just kind of weird to me.

Nor am I going to argue about the Book of Mormon and the temple rites. To me, the evidence is pretty clear, as it apparently is for you. So what would be the point? Though it is a little odd to hear you say that there's no evidence against its antiquity.
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