LDS and ex-LDS Self-Medication

[_Jersey Girl]

Okay, I tried to set this up with the full context but it looks weird so i will answer it the way you posted it, Gaz.


Gaz: Jersey, come on, you really mean to tell me that you don't know whatI'm talking about here?

Jersey Girl: I know what you're trying to talk about but you presented it sloppily.

Gaz: What did the Savior say? Matt 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Jersey Girl: Do you honestly think that humans can be perfect? If humans could be perfect, there would be no need whatsoever for a Savior to start with. What Christ is saying there and is evidenced by the preceeding verses is that we should STRIVE to have integrity and virtue. Your original post said nothing about striving. You said that we need to develop the self control that it takes to be a god. I reject outright that human beings can "be a god".

Gaz: This same encouragement/commandment is stated in numerous other places throughout all scripture. Did the Savior mean this coudl be achieved in this life? Of coarce not, but there are those who came close. Men like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Melchizedek.....

Jersey Girl: Did Noah come close to having integrity and virtue? He (according to the scripture) obeyed God's instructions, rode out the Great Flood and when it was over, he praised God for saving him by becoming a pass out drunk.

Gaz: The point is to get as close as we can. Christ was our example to strive after, was he not?

Jersey Girl: As close as we can is FAR DIFFERENT a concept than "developing the self control that it takes to be a god". Again, I reject outright that human beings can become "a god" except on MormonDiscussions if we post long enough.

Gaz: He prayed for us to be able to have the strength to do so:
John 17:19-23
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Jersey Girl: This is an encouragement to emulate, Christ. To accept the indwelling and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Emulate, Gaz, not become a god. What does "glory" mean to you? That you attempt to live a Christ like life or that based on what you do in this world, you will be exactly like Christ? Do you honestly think that you can ever be exactly like Christ? If so, I'd like to know how you hope to do that.


Gaz: This view is stated very well in 2 Nephi 31:16-21

16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.
17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow apath, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eeternal life.
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Jersey Girl: You already know that I don't accept the Book of Mormon as scripture. The mention of enduring to the end (etc.) is simply a take off on the writings of Paul.

[_Gazelam]

"Perfection is of two kinds - finite or mortal, and infinate or eternal. Finite perfection may be gained by the righteous saints in this life. It consists in living a godfearing life of devotion to the truth, of walking in complete submission to the will of the Lord, and of putting first in ones life the things of the kingdom of God. Infinate perfection is reserved for those who overcome all things and inherit the fulness of the Father in the mansions hereafter. It consists in gaining eternal life, the kind of life which God has in the highest heaven withen the celestial world" (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 512-514)

It is of infinate and eternal perfection that Jesus here speaks. He is exhorting his followers to press forward in total obedience until they become like the Father - like him in power, might, and dominion; like him in wisdom, knowledge, and truth; like him in love, charity, mercy, integrity, and in holy attributes.


What McConkie is saying above is that we are intended to be as the Fatehr is. Would God give a commandment we cannot keep? Will we be perfected in this life? No, but we are expected to try, to whittle off a little at a time the imperfections we have.

And what is the end result? Rev. 3:21

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

(Compare with John 17)

[_Gazelam]

Did Noah come close to having integrity and virtue? He (according to the scripture) obeyed God's instructions, rode out the Great Flood and when it was over, he praised God for saving him by becoming a pass out drunk.

You should be ashamed of yourself for this one.

You take a single instance and figure this is how he spent the rest of his life?

[_Jersey Girl]

"Perfection is of two kinds - finite or mortal, and infinate or eternal. Finite perfection may be gained by the righteous saints in this life. It consists in living a godfearing life of devotion to the truth, of walking in complete submission to the will of the Lord, and of putting first in ones life the things of the kingdom of God. Infinate perfection is reserved for those who overcome all things and inherit the fulness of the Father in the mansions hereafter. It consists in gaining eternal life, the kind of life which God has in the highest heaven withen the celestial world" (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 512-514)

It is of infinate and eternal perfection that Jesus here speaks. He is exhorting his followers to press forward in total obedience until they become like the Father - like him in power, might, and dominion; like him in wisdom, knowledge, and truth; like him in love, charity, mercy, integrity, and in holy attributes.


What McConkie is saying above is that we are intended to be as the Fatehr is. Would God give a commandment we cannot keep? Will we be perfected in this life? No, but we are expected to try, to whittle off a little at a time the imperfections we have.

And what is the end result? Rev. 3:21

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Just so you know where I stand, the part that I bolded is incredibly offensive to me.

[_Gazelam]

Jersey

Are you, or are you not, a daughter of God?

[_Jersey Girl]

Jersey

Are you, or are you not, a daughter of God?

I am the daughter of a Jersey truck driver who is smart enough to know that the Bible wasn't written in the KJV, who bothers to get off her lazy duff and look up the translations in Hebrew to gain fuller knowledge of the meaning of the text instead of regurgitating what some guy has to say because it conveniently supports a given theology and who views your question here (and your previous scolding regarding Noah) as a substitute for answering the many questions I put forth to you in a previous post.

That's who I am.

I suppose that instead of taking time to reply to your posts I could have saved myself that effort by asking you if you were the follower of an adulterer.

Jersey Girl

[_Runtu]

Jersey

Are you, or are you not, a daughter of God?

I am the daughter of a Jersey truck driver who is smart enough to know that the Bible wasn't written in the KJV, who bothers to get off her lazy duff and look up the translations in Hebrew to gain fuller knowledge of the meaning of the text instead of regurgitating what some guy has to say because it conveniently supports a given theology and who views your question here (and your previous scolding regarding Noah) as a substitute for answering the many questions I put forth to you in a previous post.

That's who I am.

I suppose that instead of taking time to reply to your posts I could have saved myself that effort by asking you if you were the follower of an adulterer.

Jersey Girl

I think that's the best post I've ever read from you, Jersey Girl. Well said!

[_Jersey Girl]

Jersey

Are you, or are you not, a daughter of God?

I am the daughter of a Jersey truck driver who is smart enough to know that the Bible wasn't written in the KJV, who bothers to get off her lazy duff and look up the translations in Hebrew to gain fuller knowledge of the meaning of the text instead of regurgitating what some guy has to say because it conveniently supports a given theology and who views your question here (and your previous scolding regarding Noah) as a substitute for answering the many questions I put forth to you in a previous post.

That's who I am.

I suppose that instead of taking time to reply to your posts I could have saved myself that effort by asking you if you were the follower of an adulterer.

Jersey Girl

I think that's the best post I've ever read from you, Jersey Girl. Well said!

I always make more sense when I'm fully nauseated. Thanks.

[_ludwigm]

Gazelam wrote:

John chp.8
...
this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act
...
One always has to wonder what it was he was writing on the ground.

The woman was a professional, a whore. (See the definition in another thread!)
He was writing the list of her clients. (the consumers) The scribes and Pharisees around Him.

I always have to wonder, who was the other, "in the very act".

[_Gazelam]

as a substitute for answering the many questions I put forth to you in a previous post.

I have no idea what question you asked that I did not answer. I looked back through our exchange here and saw nothing.

As to who you are, Romans 8:16-17

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

How about another? Galatians 4:5-7

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

See also: 1 John 3:2 ; 1 Corinthians 15:49 ; 2 Corinthians 3:18 ; John 17:21-23 ; Philippians 3:21

People are very quick to disregard Lorenzo Snows comment as a mere couplet, but in the second century, Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (about A.D. 130-200), the most important Christian theologian of his time, said much the same thing:

If the Word became a man,
It was so men may become gods.
(Against Heresies book 5, preface)

Further he stated

"Do we cast blame on him (God) because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High." ... For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality."
( Ibid., 4.38 (4); compare 4.11 (2): "But man receives progression and increase towards God. For as God is always the same, so also man, when found in God, shall always progress towards God.")

At about the same time, Clement of Alexandria (about A.D. 150-215) wrote: "Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god." (Exhortation to the Greeks,1 ) Clement also said that "if one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God.... His is beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes a god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, "Men are Gods, and gods are men""

Still in the second century, Justin Martyr (about A.D. 100-165) insisted that in the beginning men "were made like God, free from suffering and death," and that they are thus "deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest." (Dialogue with Trypho, 124) Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria (about A.D. 296-373), also stated his belief in deification in terms very similar to those of Lorenzo Snow: "The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. . . Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." (Against the Aryans 1.39, 3.34.) On another occasion Athanasius observed: "He became man that we might be made divine." (On the Incarnation, 54 ) Finally Augustine of Hippo (A.D. 354-430), th egreatest of the early Christian Fathers, said: "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become the sons of God' (John 1:12). If then we have been made sons of god, we have also been made gods." (On the Psalms)

All five of the above writers were not just orthodox Christians, but also in time revered as saints. Three of the five wrote withen a hundred years of the period of the apostles, and all five believed in the doctrine of deification.

The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology contains the following in an article titled "Deification":

Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is 'made in the image and likeness of God'.... it is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become gods by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages of both Old Testament and New Testament (e.g. Ps.82 (81).6 2 Peter 1.4), and it is essentially the teaching both of St.Paul, through he tends to use the language of filial adoption (cf. Rom. 8.9-17; Gal. 4.5-7), and the Fourth Gospel (cf. 17.21-23)

the language of 2 Peter is taken up by St Iranaeus, in his famous phrase, "if the word has been made man, it is so that men may be made Gods" (Adv Haer V, Pref), and becomes the standard in Greek theology. In the fourth century St Athanasius repeats Irenaeus almost word for word, and in the fifth century St Cyril of Alexandria says that we shall become sons 'by participation' (Greek methexis). Deification is the central idea in the spirituality of St Maximus the Confessor, for whom the doctrine is the corollary of the Incarnation: 'Deification, briefly, is the encompassing and fulfillment of all times and ages,'... and St Symeon the New Theologian at the end of the tenth century writes, 'He who is God by nature converses with those whom he has made gods by grace, as a friend converses with his friends, face to face'...

Finally, it should be noted that deification does not mean absorption into God, since the deified creature remains itself and distinct. It is the whole human being, body and soul, who is transfigured in the Spirit into the likeness of the divine nature, and deification is the goal of every Christian.

In short, whether one accepts or rejects the doctrine of the deification of man, it was clearly a part of mainstream Christian Orthodoxy for centuries. Joseph Smith obviously did not make it up. Instead, Latter-day Saints believe, it is an eternal truth restored through modern prophets.