Warren Jeffs, unsealed papers; he quit as Prophet

[_SatanWasSetUp]

"On January 24, 2007, the Defendant made a series of phone calls to family and church members in which he related that when he was 20 years old, he had been immoral with a sister and a daughter,"

A sister? A daughter? I think I'm going to be sick.

Only because of "presentism." Why are you judging events from 30 years ago based on the morailty of today? Besides, look at the Bible. God had sex with his 14 year old daughter. If you're going to accuse Jeffs of immorality, you also need to accuse God of the same thing. Or maybe you don't believe in the Bible, or even God *shudder*. I received spiritual confirmation that Jeffs is a prophet, and that's the only evidence that matters. You don't understand, because you've never received a spiritual confirmation.

*sigh* So I guess this is going to turn into something to bash the LDS church with? I was actually interested in a discussion about the FLDS...

'

Huh? I'm not bashing the LDS church, I'm defending Warren Jeffs, a prophet of God.

[_Alter Idem]

when I saw this on the news last night - I had flashbacks to the all of the publicity the little community of Hilldale received during the olympics, and the tom Green trial.. the 48 hours special that filmed and showed a fundie sacrament meeting which was near identical to an LDS meeting including announcements for mutual activities and testimonies, same green hymbooks in the same purple covered pews...

I wonder how all of the FLDS followers feel today after learning all of their P-hood ordinances - baptisms - blessings - prophcies - sealings - originated and performed by an admitted incestious loving, child molesting, fraud artist --

oh silly me - I have a great position for empathy... sheesh what was I thinking :)

Evolving, there are a number of polygamist communities. The Colorado city group(Warren Jeffs) is probably not the one you saw pictures of--if you see pictures of them, it's outside. They are very wary of outside interest.

Tom Green was up in Utah county and I'm not sure what group (if any) he was associated with--but definitely not the Colorado city group.

There is also the other group that originated with the Short Creek/Colorado City group which remained in the Salt Lake Valley and they are out in Bluffdale. They are probably the ones that you saw footage of their sacrament meetings. They are much more open to outside interest and they have even worked with the authorities to try and stop abuse within their community. They are more progressive than the FLDS in southern Utah.

[_Who Knows]

*sigh* So I guess this is going to turn into something to bash the LDS church with? I was actually interested in a discussion about the FLDS...

'

Huh? I'm not bashing the LDS church, I'm defending Warren Jeffs, a prophet of God.

Me too. I was merely suggesting that there is no reason for the FLDS member to abandon their faith because of this news. They need only ask themselves if their paradigm was correct. And since it wasn't (obviously - since they've received spiritual confirmation of the truth of the FLDS church), they merely need to shift it.

[_Alter Idem]

Who knows and Evolving, I've just got thin skin. Don't mind me.

I guess I'm too used to MADB where remarks like that get dinged. Hey, at least here, I can speak up and I won't be breaking any rules by being a "board nanny".

[_Alter Idem]

*sigh* So I guess this is going to turn into something to bash the LDS church with? I was actually interested in a discussion about the FLDS...

'

Huh? I'm not bashing the LDS church, I'm defending Warren Jeffs, a prophet of God.

Me too. I was merely suggesting that there is no reason for the FLDS member to abandon their faith because of this news. They need only ask themselves if their paradigm was correct. And since it wasn't (obviously - since they've received spiritual confirmation of the truth of the FLDS church), they merely need to shift it.

More likely, whomever is running the community on the outside will wrest control from Jeffs and declare him a fallen prophet. And the followers who want to remain with the church will go along with it.

[_evolving]

Evolving, there are a number of polygamist communities. The Colorado city group(Warren Jeffs) is probably not the one you saw pictures of--if you see pictures of them, it's outside. They are very wary of outside interest.

Tom Green was up in Utah county and I'm not sure what group (if any) he was associated with--but definitely not the Colorado city group.

There is also the other group that originated with the Short Creek/Colorado City group which remained in the Salt Lake Valley and they are out in Bluffdale. They are probably the ones that you saw footage of their sacrament meetings. They are much more open to outside interest and they have even worked with the authorities to try and stop abuse within their community. They are more progressive than the FLDS in southern Utah.

the video shot was in the Colorado City/Hilldale group -- it was a few years ago - It was a 48 hours special on polygamy spawned by the 2002 Olympics -- they(the Warren Jeffs lead ) Hilldale group were trying to put their best foot forward the cameras.. I am aware of the other fundie groups, I grew up with fundie neighbors - there were two prominent polyg families in the millcreek 12th ward .. known and admitted - the kids had the option to get baptized as LDS but also held private baptisims for their own.. I played baseball with the boys, and flirted with the girls..

I remember so distinctly, because my daughter who was 12, was a little freaked that the Mormons on TV were practicing polygamists ... and I remember saying, it was only those Mormons down south who were out of step with reality - we are the normal ones -- now I believe something different..

[_karl61]

the problem with polygamy is within a couple generations everyone you know is your half-sister, cousin, sister, etc. You need to go out of state to meet someone to marry unless you want those recessive genes matching up. It might be great for the guy who is doing it but lousy for everyone else. It's totally selfish. Now polyandry is actually more wise and moral and better for the world in terms of population growth and child rearing.

[_Who Knows]

More likely, whomever is running the community on the outside will wrest control from Jeffs and declare him a fallen prophet. And the followers who want to remain with the church will go along with it.

I see it as 'thinning the herd' of the weak members. Those without the strongest of testimonies will likely abandon the church, so only the strongest remain. A true test of faith.

[_evolving]

the problem with polygamy is within a couple generations everyone you know is your half-sister, cousin, sister, etc. You need to go out of state to meet someone to marry unless you want those recessive genes matching up. It might be great for the guy who is doing it but lousy for everyone else. It's totally selfish. Now polyandry is actually more wise and moral and better for the world in terms of population growth and child rearing.

and I think the main problem is -- Women are treated like brood mares, used as currency, used to gain political power and favors from the Prophet .. little girls have one future, the hope to birth lots of kids, and then raise their offspring and their sister wives kids until they wear out and die, and then the hope for celestial glory of well... endless celestial sex and bearing hundreds of billions spirit babies.. the whole doctrine disgusting really -- at it's core it is about sex and power...

[_Sethbag]

This really is a good place for David Bokavoy's attitude to be examined, as has been hinted at in an earlier post.

Ok, so some FLDS have discovered something which threatens their faith - what should they do? According to David, they ought to reexamine their paradigms to see if they were understanding their faith and the role of the prophet correctly. Maybe there's a way they can view these things differently that will allow their faith to remain intact.

In fact, we have Charity's example of prophetic infallibility. Well, we now know that Warren Jeffs is only human, and is not infallible. Rather than judge that he must not be a true prophet because of these revelations of a sinful past, should FLDS not instead come to terms with the idea that their prophet is not infallible? Should they not rather come to terms with the idea that their prophet is a fallible, sometimes even weak, human being just like the rest of us? Who are we to judge the Lord's annointed?

The bottom line for devout FLDS is that Warren Jeffs is a true prophet, and that is true regardless of anything he has done. And since he is a true prophet, then obviously God is OK with whatever he has done and repented of, and it is to God that Warren Jeffs must account, not to any of us.

There is nothing in any of these revelations which should so much as scratch the FLDS testimony, at least if they actually have a solid testimony like they claim.

Of course this is all bullchit, but it's the exact same bullchit that the LDS apologists use with regards to Joseph Smith. The bottom line for faithful LDS is that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and it simple does not matter what he did, what sins he might have committed, etc. because that is between God and him, and God is apparently OK with that, or with his repentance, and so the faith remains. Nothing can touch it.

The LDS apologists cannot tell us one good reason why the Warren Jeffs situation isn't exactly the same. In the end it'll all come down to a person's own personal "spiritual witness".