evolving wrote:and I think the main problem is -- Women are treated like brood mares, used as currency, used to gain political power and favors from the Prophet .. little girls have one future, the hope to birth lots of kids, and then raise their offspring and their sister wives kids until they wear out and die, and then the hope for celestial glory of well... endless celestial sex and bearing hundreds of billions spirit babies.. the whole doctrine disgusting really -- at it's core it is about sex and power...
I agree; life under Brigham Young was no picnic.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"
Sethbag wrote:This really is a good place for David Bokavoy's attitude to be examined, as has been hinted at in an earlier post.
Ok, so some FLDS have discovered something which threatens their faith - what should they do? According to David, they ought to reexamine their paradigms to see if they were understanding their faith and the role of the prophet correctly. Maybe there's a way they can view these things differently that will allow their faith to remain intact.
In fact, we have Charity's example of prophetic infallibility. Well, we now know that Warren Jeffs is only human, and is not infallible. Rather than judge that he must not be a true prophet because of these revelations of a sinful past, should FLDS not instead come to terms with the idea that their prophet is not infallible? Should they not rather come to terms with the idea that their prophet is a fallible, sometimes even weak, human being just like the rest of us? Who are we to judge the Lord's annointed?
The bottom line for devout FLDS is that Warren Jeffs is a true prophet, and that is true regardless of anything he has done. And since he is a true prophet, then obviously God is OK with whatever he has done and repented of, and it is to God that Warren Jeffs must account, not to any of us.
There is nothing in any of these revelations which should so much as scratch the FLDS testimony, at least if they actually have a solid testimony like they claim.
Of course this is all bullchit, but it's the exact same bullchit that the LDS apologists use with regards to Joseph Smith. The bottom line for faithful LDS is that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and it simple does not matter what he did, what sins he might have committed, etc. because that is between God and him, and God is apparently OK with that, or with his repentance, and so the faith remains. Nothing can touch it.
The LDS apologists cannot tell us one good reason why the Warren Jeffs situation isn't exactly the same. In the end it'll all come down to a person's own personal "spiritual witness".
The problem with trying to generalize LDS attitudes towards Prophets to FLDS is that the FLDS church is different. They haven't always believed in "one man rule". It has only been a part of their doctrine since about 1980. Their earlier leaders never claimed to be "Prophets". At first, they were ruled by a Priesthood council--all the members votes carried the same weight. Then if one fell out of favor, there were others to keep it afloat. The FLDS group has struggled with factions among their priesthood council--which is how Rulon Jeffs was able to take over and become "a prophet" when they hadn't been considered prophets in the past. Because of past power struggles, I really expect that another faction could maybe unseat the Jeff's faction...especially since they are vulnerable right now. However, I don't know how well Jeffs has insulated himself from being unseated. This was the main reason for the purgings back when he became prophet--to get rid of any who might oppose him.
Frankly, I'm not sure what will happen, but I do think the group is ripe for a takeover.
Sethbag wrote:This really is a good place for David Bokavoy's attitude to be examined, as has been hinted at in an earlier post.
Ok, so some FLDS have discovered something which threatens their faith - what should they do? According to David, they ought to reexamine their paradigms to see if they were understanding their faith and the role of the prophet correctly. Maybe there's a way they can view these things differently that will allow their faith to remain intact.
In fact, we have Charity's example of prophetic infallibility. Well, we now know that Warren Jeffs is only human, and is not infallible. Rather than judge that he must not be a true prophet because of these revelations of a sinful past, should FLDS not instead come to terms with the idea that their prophet is not infallible? Should they not rather come to terms with the idea that their prophet is a fallible, sometimes even weak, human being just like the rest of us? Who are we to judge the Lord's annointed?
The bottom line for devout FLDS is that Warren Jeffs is a true prophet, and that is true regardless of anything he has done. And since he is a true prophet, then obviously God is OK with whatever he has done and repented of, and it is to God that Warren Jeffs must account, not to any of us.
There is nothing in any of these revelations which should so much as scratch the FLDS testimony, at least if they actually have a solid testimony like they claim.
Of course this is all bullchit, but it's the exact same bullchit that the LDS apologists use with regards to Joseph Smith. The bottom line for faithful LDS is that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and it simple does not matter what he did, what sins he might have committed, etc. because that is between God and him, and God is apparently OK with that, or with his repentance, and so the faith remains. Nothing can touch it.
The LDS apologists cannot tell us one good reason why the Warren Jeffs situation isn't exactly the same. In the end it'll all come down to a person's own personal "spiritual witness".
The problem with trying to generalize LDS attitudes towards Prophets to FLDS is that the FLDS church is different. They haven't always believed in "one man rule". It has only been a part of their doctrine since about 1980. Their earlier leaders never claimed to be "Prophets".
At first, they were ruled by a Priesthood council--all the members votes carried the same weight. Then if one fell out of favor, there were others to keep it afloat. The FLDS group has struggled with factions among their priesthood council--which is how Rulon Jeffs was able to take over and become "a prophet" when they hadn't been considered prophets in the past.
Because of past power struggles, I really expect that another faction could maybe unseat the Jeff's faction...especially since they are vulnerable right now. However, I don't know how well Jeffs has insulated himself from being unseated. This was the main reason for the purgings back when he became prophet--to get rid of any who might oppose him. Frankly, I'm not sure what will happen, but I do think the group is ripe for a takeover.
Well, the LDS went through the same chaos, it just wasn't as recent. After Joseph died, there was no clear prophet. The church broke into splinter groups, and If I recall correctly, Brigham Young wasn't considered a Prophet until much later. The Q12 ran the church, but Joseph Smith was still the prophet. The church's well oiled succession machine wasn't broken in until after BY.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
Well, the LDS went through the same chaos, it just wasn't as recent. After Joseph died, there was no clear prophet. The church broke into splinter groups, and If I recall correctly, Brigham Young wasn't considered a Prophet until much later. The Q12 ran the church, but Joseph Smith was still the prophet. The church's well oiled succession machine wasn't broken in until after BY.
Yes, that's true--But the church's successsion has been established now since about 1880-and it's run smoothly since.
I'm not sure the FLDS policies and procedures are as stable. Warren Jeffs has not been as "well-received" as the leaders in the past either. He's made a number of controversial decisions that could have caused some of his followers to question if he could be a fallen Prophet.
Last edited by mentalgymnast on Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Sethbag wrote:This really is a good place for David Bokavoy's attitude to be examined, as has been hinted at in an earlier post.
Ok, so some FLDS have discovered something which threatens their faith - what should they do? According to David, they ought to reexamine their paradigms to see if they were understanding their faith and the role of the prophet correctly. Maybe there's a way they can view these things differently that will allow their faith to remain intact.
In fact, we have Charity's example of prophetic infallibility. Well, we now know that Warren Jeffs is only human, and is not infallible. Rather than judge that he must not be a true prophet because of these revelations of a sinful past, should FLDS not instead come to terms with the idea that their prophet is not infallible? Should they not rather come to terms with the idea that their prophet is a fallible, sometimes even weak, human being just like the rest of us? Who are we to judge the Lord's annointed?
The bottom line for devout FLDS is that Warren Jeffs is a true prophet, and that is true regardless of anything he has done. And since he is a true prophet, then obviously God is OK with whatever he has done and repented of, and it is to God that Warren Jeffs must account, not to any of us.
There is nothing in any of these revelations which should so much as scratch the FLDS testimony, at least if they actually have a solid testimony like they claim.
Of course this is all bullchit, but it's the exact same bullchit that the LDS apologists use with regards to Joseph Smith. The bottom line for faithful LDS is that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and it simple does not matter what he did, what sins he might have committed, etc. because that is between God and him, and God is apparently OK with that, or with his repentance, and so the faith remains. Nothing can touch it.
The LDS apologists cannot tell us one good reason why the Warren Jeffs situation isn't exactly the same. In the end it'll all come down to a person's own personal "spiritual witness".
The problem with trying to generalize LDS attitudes towards Prophets to FLDS is that the FLDS church is different. They haven't always believed in "one man rule". It has only been a part of their doctrine since about 1980. Their earlier leaders never claimed to be "Prophets".
At first, they were ruled by a Priesthood council--all the members votes carried the same weight. Then if one fell out of favor, there were others to keep it afloat. The FLDS group has struggled with factions among their priesthood council--which is how Rulon Jeffs was able to take over and become "a prophet" when they hadn't been considered prophets in the past.
Because of past power struggles, I really expect that another faction could maybe unseat the Jeff's faction...especially since they are vulnerable right now. However, I don't know how well Jeffs has insulated himself from being unseated. This was the main reason for the purgings back when he became prophet--to get rid of any who might oppose him. Frankly, I'm not sure what will happen, but I do think the group is ripe for a takeover.
Well, the LDS went through the same chaos, it just wasn't as recent. After Joseph died, there was no clear prophet. The church broke into splinter groups, and If I recall correctly, Brigham Young wasn't considered a Prophet until much later. The Q12 ran the church, but Joseph Smith was still the prophet. The church's well oiled succession machine wasn't broken in until after BY.
who ever had the stone was the one with the power.
"On January 24, 2007, the Defendant made a series of phone calls to family and church members in which he related that when he was 20 years old, he had been immoral with a sister and a daughter,"
A sister? A daughter? I think I'm going to be sick.
Only because of "presentism." Why are you judging events from 30 years ago based on the morailty of today? Besides, look at the Bible. God had sex with his 14 year old daughter. If you're going to accuse Jeffs of immorality, you also need to accuse God of the same thing. Or maybe you don't believe in the Bible, or even God *shudder*. I received spiritual confirmation that Jeffs is a prophet, and that's the only evidence that matters. You don't understand, because you've never received a spiritual confirmation.
*sigh* So I guess this is going to turn into something to bash the LDS church with? I was actually interested in a discussion about the FLDS...
There is no difference between the LDS and FLDS in regards to the backstory they use to identify themselves. The only difference is in the organizational structure.
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
Alter Idem, you may well be right about the FLDS Prophet's security and the more tentative nature of some FLDS peoples' relationship with him. My main point is that the apologetic approach is the exact same. And it demonstrates clearly the fatal flaw in David Bokovoy's argument. An FLDS person could read his argument and apply it to their own situation (assuming they have faith that Jeffs is a true prophet) and retain their faith in Jeffs as a prophet.
One could easily go back and paraphrase DB thusly:
Is there ever a good reason to leave the FLDS? No, I don't think so. When a member learns something which challenges their faith in the FLDS church or Warren Jeffs as their Prophet, they should instead re-examine their belief paradigm with respect to what the expect the Prophet to be like and do, and change their belief paradigm to a more healthy and helpful one that puts things into a better, more accurate perspective, but which doesn't undermine their underlying faith that Jeffs is indeed God's Prophet on Earth, and the FLDS church is indeed God's Kingdom on Earth.
It's the same exact thing. And yet Bokovoy and the other LDS apologists probably shudder somewhat inside to realize that their apologetic approach would only lead to others outside of the LDS church rendering their belief in other non-LDS churches impervious to any kind of fundemental re-evaluation or abandonment. Following Bokovoy's lead, no FLDS could ever be brought to see that their church wasn't actually true so that they could join the LDS church, because the accepted underlying truth of the FLDS church would be completely exempted from question or doubt.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
I need to get into my car and drive to that area and see if there is suddenly a huge increase of single depressed females in the area. Maybe I can find somone to marry. Maybe stay a week. See what's up. Take in the sun rays!
thestyleguy wrote:I need to get into my car and drive to that area and see if there is suddenly a huge increase of single depressed females in the area. Maybe I can find somone to marry. Maybe stay a week. See what's up. Take in the sun rays!
I think you'd sooner run into an authentic jackalope than find a single young (non-butt ugly) woman in southern Utah. ;-)
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
"The people to whom Jeffs spoke responded that he was the prophet and that he was merely "being tested."
So it is then. His true, eternal prophethood is already a done deal That is what the followers have decided. Give it a few decades and a lot of zealous testimony meetings, and there will be hymns about the man and gushing faith promoting stories about his loving family relationships and a great great prophet who may have had a "foible or two". The Prophet Warren is born!
Now if he can only get killed in prison, he'll be a world-beater!