Book of Mormon Intro - "Principal Ancestors" wording changed

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

You can read of many instances where the Nephites were in bondage to the Lamanites. And remember, it was only a short while after they arrived in the New World where Nephite and Lamanite became merely terms of political affiliation and not lineage. "Lamanites" could have included many other ethnically different peoples.


Even if they were ethnically diverse, according to the Book of Mormon, they still considered Laman and Lemuel to be their "fathers", and referred to their story as their own history.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_charity
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Post by _charity »

beastie wrote:King Benjamin worked because he chose to, as a statement of ideology. The Book of Mormon also contains stories of kings who lived in luxury.

But the real problem with the Book of Mormon's political system is as Huck said - it is the political machinations described therein. It is one polity warring with another and then possessing their city. It is one leader also being considered the political leader of another, distant polity. It is a polity having a standing army. It is wars that extended across a distant region.

For more details, see my essay here:

http://zarahemlacitylimits.com/wiki/ind ... _and_Power

by the way, Charity, do you believe that one can see buried treasures by looking at a stone in a hat?


Where do you get the distances involved? ("distant city?") Remember the "three days journey for a Nephite?" Who exaclty had a standing army? I am not an expert here, but I seem to remember someone writing about how the wars are only ought in "winter," that is in the season foillowing harvest because the part time soldiers are evidently mostly farmers.

Nibley wroteo the subject. It is on the FARMS site. For free. Check it out.

by the way, beastie, I can't see buried treasures by looking at a stone in a hat. But I won't say it can't happen.. My father could witch water. I couldn't, but I saw him do it on a number of occasions. There are things I don't' understand how they work. I am sure there was a physical mechanism involved. We just don't understand them yet. As we couldn't see how some really heavy object could fly. Until the early 1900's, that is. Then didn't all those people who said people would never be able to fly look stupid.
_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

I'm just waiting for the day when all those mockers and scorners who said you can't see buried treasure by staring at a rock in the bottom of your hat will be made to look stupid, just like the heavier-than-air flying machine doubters. Remember folks, fools mock, but they shall mourn!
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Pokatator
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Post by _Pokatator »

harmony wrote:
charity wrote:How many friendly reminders does merc get? This is the not the first time he/she has called me the same name, and gotten the same friendly reminder.


We don't ban people here, charity. It's one of the more charming aspects of this board. Comments may be moved to the appropriate forum and a mild reminder may be in order, but, unlike other boards, we don't ban anyone, we don't delete comments, and we don't put anyone on a queue. We police ourselves; we don't need anyone to tell us what to say or how to say it. And danged if that isn't one of the hardest things for the MADdites among us to get used to.


I want to ditto Harmony here, she is entirely correct. This is one of our strengths here. Charity I urge you to revisit the thread about "Ms. Scratch". This I feel is a good example of us self-regulating ourselves. Bcspace has another thread about you being called something I don't care to repeat, that has a self-regulating effect. I don't want to go to a moderation system like you are used to at MAD.

You recently told Runtu something adding that he can go over to MAD and read this or that anytime he would like. I was banned even from reading, I don't have that option. I would challenge you to go and read my last 10-20-30 posts over there, something I can't do by the way, and tell me if there is anything I did or said to deserve the treatment I have gotten. Paharon last December did that, he reported that he saw nothing that was out of line in my posts. He noted a couple of pert drive-bys but nothing really. I don't want that kind of system here.

I know that Vegas and PP can flame a little too much for your liking, even for my liking. I have called them on it just like many, many others here have. But we have to grow a little skin, too. I like Vegas and PP a lot, they bring good thoughts and ideas, I don't want to be without them. I think we all have our times, I know I do, I don't use the names and profanity they have, but I have been immature and stupid with some of my drive-by posts and comments. I think we are all adults here and we all slip back into adolescence at times. That's what keeps us young, is what I say.

This system works and I thank Shades for it.
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
bcspace
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Where do you get the distances involved? ("distant city?") Remember the "three days journey for a Nephite?" Who exaclty had a standing army? I am not an expert here, but I seem to remember someone writing about how the wars are only ought in "winter," that is in the season foillowing harvest because the part time soldiers are evidently mostly farmers.


If you would bother to read my essay, you would find out. I used Sorenson's suggestions. By "far distances" I mean within the Mesoamerican region, not across the entire US. My far distances are entirely consistent with Sorenson and Gardner's suggestions. To size it down even more, you're going to have a story that makes even less sense than it already does under LGT - basically, it happened in a neighborhood.

In regards to the standing army, this is also dealt with at length in my essay, which you will not read. I will not copy and paste an entire essay here, but share these verses with you:

Alma 52, BC 66


5 And now, Teancum saw that the Lamanites were determined to maintain those cities which they had taken, and those parts of the land which they had obtained possession of; and also seeing the enormity of their number, Teancum thought it was not expedient that he should attempt to attack them in their forts.
6 But he kept his men round about, as if making preparations for war; yea, and truly he was preparing to defend himself against them, by casting up walls round about and preparing places of resort.
7 And it came to pass that he kept thus preparing for war until Moroni had sent a large number of men to strengthen his army.
8 And Moroni also sent orders unto him that he should retain all the prisoners who fell into his hands; for as the Lamanites had taken many prisoners, that he should retain all the prisoners of the Lamanites as a ransom for those whom the Lamanites had taken.
9 And he also sent orders unto him that he should fortify the land Bountiful, and secure the narrow pass which led into the land northward, lest the Lamanites should obtain that point and should have power to harass them on every side.
10 And Moroni also sent unto him, desiring him that he would be faithful in maintaining that quarter of the land, and that he would seek every opportunity to scourge the Lamanites in that quarter, as much as was in his power, that perhaps he might take again by stratagem or some other way those cities which had been taken out of their hands; and that he also would fortify and strengthen the cities round about, which had not fallen into the hands of the Lamanites.
11 And he also said unto him, I would come unto you, but behold, the Lamanites are upon us in the borders of the land by the west sea; and behold, I go against them, therefore I cannot come unto you.


Alma 53, BC 64

2 And Moroni went to the city of Mulek with Lehi, and took command of the city and gave it unto Lehi. Now behold, this Lehi was a man who had been with Moroni in the more part of all his battles; and he was a man like unto Moroni, and they rejoiced in each other’s safety; yea, they were beloved by each other, and also beloved by all the people of Nephi.
3 And it came to pass that after the Lamanites had finished burying their dead and also the dead of the Nephites, they were marched back into the land Bountiful; and Teancum, by the orders of Moroni, caused that they should commence laboring in digging a ditch round about the land, or the city, Bountiful.
4 And he caused that they should build a breastwork of timbers upon the inner bank of the ditch; and they cast up dirt out of the ditch against the breastwork of timbers; and thus they did cause the Lamanites to labor until they had encircled the city of Bountiful round about with a strong wall of timbers and earth, to an exceeding height.
5 And this city became an exceeding stronghold ever after; and in this city they did guard the prisoners of the Lamanites; yea, even within a wall which they had caused them to build with their own hands. Now Moroni was compelled to cause the Lamanites to labor, because it was easy to guard them while at their labor; and he desired all his forces when he should make an attack upon the Lamanites.
6 And it came to pass that Moroni had thus gained a victory over one of the greatest of the armies of the Lamanites, and had obtained possession of the city of aMulek, which was one of the strongest holds of the Lamanites in the land of Nephi; and thus he had also built a stronghold to retain his prisoners.
7 And it came to pass that he did no more attempt a battle with the Lamanites in that year, but he did employ his men in preparing for war, yea, and in making fortifications to guard against the Lamanites, yea, and also delivering their women and their children from famine and affliction, and providing food for their armies.
8 And now it came to pass that the armies of the Lamanites, on the west sea, south, while in the absence of Moroni on account of some intrigue amongst the Nephites, which caused dissensions amongst them, had gained some ground over the Nephites, yea, insomuch that they had obtained possession of a number of their cities in that part of the land.
9 And thus because of iniquity amongst themselves, yea, because of dissensions and intrigue among themselves they were placed in the most dangerous circumstances.


13 And now these are the cities of which the Lamanites have obtained possession by the shedding of the blood of so many of our valiant men;
14 The land of Manti, or the city of Manti, and the city of Zeezrom, and the city of Cumeni, and the city of Antiparah.
15 And these are the cities which they possessed when I arrived at the city of Judea; and I found Antipus and his men toiling with their might to fortify the city.

26 And thus, with their forces, they were determined to maintain those cities which they had taken.
27 And now it came to pass in the second month of this year, there was brought unto us many provisions from the fathers of those my two thousand sons.
28 And also there were sent two thousand men unto us from the land of Zarahemla. And thus we were prepared with ten thousand men, and provisions for them, and also for their wives and their children.
29 And the Lamanites, thus seeing our forces increase daily, and provisions arrive for our support, they began to be fearful, and began to sally forth, if it were possible to put an end to our receiving provisions and strength.
Alma 56, BC 65


21 But Gidgiddoni saith unto them: The Lord forbid; for if we should go up against them the Lord would deliver us into their hands; therefore we will prepare ourselves in the center of our lands, and we will gather all our armies together, and we will not go against them, but we will wait till they shall come against us; therefore as the Lord liveth, if we do this he will deliver them into our hands.
22 And it came to pass in the seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which had been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies.
23 And the land which was appointed was the land of Zarahemla, and the land which was between the land Zarahemla and the land Bountiful, yea, to the line which was between the land Bountiful and the land Desolation.
24 And there were a great many thousand people who were called Nephites, who did gather themselves together in this land. Now Lachoneus did cause that they should gather themselves together in the land southward, because of the great curse which was upon the land northward.
25 And they did fortify themselves against their enemies; and they did dwell in one land, and in one body, and they did fear the words which had been spoken by Lachoneus, insomuch that they did repent of all their sins; and they did put up their prayers unto the Lord their God, that he would deliver them in the time that their enemies should come down against them to battle.
3 Nephi 3, AD 17


Once again, I give great detail and scholarly support in my essays.

http://zarahemlacitylimits.com/wiki/ind ... Provisions

So you are not embarrassed to admit you think it's possible someone could see buried treasures by looking in a stone in a hat. Do you also believe that angry ghosts guarding the treasures could cause them to slip down into the earth?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Pokatator
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Post by _Pokatator »

Charity wrote:
by the way, beastie, I can't see buried treasures by looking at a stone in a hat. But I won't say it can't happen.. My father could witch water. I couldn't, but I saw him do it on a number of occasions. There are things I don't' understand how they work. I am sure there was a physical mechanism involved. We just don't understand them yet. As we couldn't see how some really heavy object could fly. Until the early 1900's, that is. Then didn't all those people who said people would never be able to fly look stupid.


Charity, I urge you to go to YouTube and search James Randi. He is the former, "Amazing Randi", he has debunked the dowsers, the treasure seekers, cold readers and the likes of Uri Geller and other "super naturalists". He has a million dollar prize for anyone that can prove their "supernatural" abilities. Call your father and have him call James. I doubt that Joseph Smith would have been able to claim the prize either.

I don't think that water witching and aircraft are a good comparison. Supernatural vs Technology doesn't equate.
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
bcspace
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Post by _Pokatator »

huckelberry wrote:Charity, it seems fair I should consider your observation that the Book of Mormon is not required to conform to my expectations. I should try to connect with the books own intentions, at least that make sense to me.

You characterize the work as a religious testament whose limited historical interest is all related to the royal line. I, perhaps too quickly, think it spends a good bit of space on details of wars which certainly is political history. Not too mention following the story of a royal line is both political history and a very common approach to the story of history. I would expect an explanation of how the kings got established. It is after all quite a big jump to go from being a tiny enclave of immigrants in a foreign culture to being king. I would expect a story concentrating on the story of the royal line to mention how that happened. Perhaps they would not say how in just the way I would expect, but silence?

How far can stylization of a story go to reflect special focus? It is possible of course that with a special focus a story might leave out suprising things.

What do you see as the important focus the book has which would occasion leaving out how the Kings got started, how they established their independence? (I mentioned that not thinking it completely impossible just that I was puzzled that it was of such small interest as not to get mentioned in the story)

I might mention that we are all familiar with another genuine ancient history with extreme focus on religious dimension of history, the Old Testament. It seems hard to imagine that history avoiding the problems in the process of establishing kings as an introduction to its detailing of a divided pair of kingship lines.


Pssst, Huckelberry, it's all just a story.
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
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_charity
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Post by _charity »

Pokatator wrote:
harmony wrote:
charity wrote:How many friendly reminders does merc get? This is the not the first time he/she has called me the same name, and gotten the same friendly reminder.


We don't ban people here, charity. It's one of the more charming aspects of this board. Comments may be moved to the appropriate forum and a mild reminder may be in order, but, unlike other boards, we don't ban anyone, we don't delete comments, and we don't put anyone on a queue. We police ourselves; we don't need anyone to tell us what to say or how to say it. And danged if that isn't one of the hardest things for the MADdites among us to get used to.


I want to ditto Harmony here, she is entirely correct. This is one of our strengths here. Charity I urge you to revisit the thread about "Ms. Scratch". This I feel is a good example of us self-regulating ourselves. Bcspace has another thread about you being called something I don't care to repeat, that has a self-regulating effect. I don't want to go to a moderation system like you are used to at MAD.

You recently told Runtu something adding that he can go over to MAD and read this or that anytime he would like. I was banned even from reading, I don't have that option. I would challenge you to go and read my last 10-20-30 posts over there, something I can't do by the way, and tell me if there is anything I did or said to deserve the treatment I have gotten. Paharon last December did that, he reported that he saw nothing that was out of line in my posts. He noted a couple of pert drive-bys but nothing really. I don't want that kind of system here.

I know that Vegas and PP can flame a little too much for your liking, even for my liking. I have called them on it just like many, many others here have. But we have to grow a little skin, too. I like Vegas and PP a lot, they bring good thoughts and ideas, I don't want to be without them. I think we all have our times, I know I do, I don't use the names and profanity they have, but I have been immature and stupid with some of my drive-by posts and comments. I think we are all adults here and we all slip back into adolescence at times. That's what keeps us young, is what I say.

This system works and I thank Shades for it.


I wll remember and try to get used to it. I was always taught that name calling was a sure sign of immaturity and generally resulted in frustration from not being able to measure up to the demands of the situation.

Pokatator, do you think that those who name call here also call their family members names? I sure hope not. In family situations it is a form of emotional abuse. Calling a child a name is in some ways worse than a physical blow. Bruises heal but being called stupid or an idiot or a ****** stays with a child.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I wll remember and try to get used to it. I was always taught that name calling was a sure sign of immaturity and generally resulted in frustration from not being able to measure up to the demands of the situation.

Pokatator, do you think that those who name call here also call their family members names? I sure hope not. In family situations it is a form of emotional abuse. Calling a child a name is in some ways worse than a physical blow. Bruises heal but being called stupid or an idiot or a ****** stays with a child.


I agree that name calling can be a form of emotional abuse. However, it's a known phenomenon that the internet decreases inhibition, so I think there is reason to hope that the name-callers would refrain in real life.

However, it is an oversimplification to believe that name calling immediately signals not being able to measure up to the demands of the situation. Surely your psychology training did not teach you that. There are plenty of extremely intelligent people who name call out of disdain, or frustration with the inadequacies of the other party, not their own.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Rollo Tomasi
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Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

charity wrote:... there is no need for them to take responsbility for your erroneous interpretations.

Don't you mean Bruce McConkie's erroneous interpretations?
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
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