FAIR Journal - Message from Gordy

[_dartagnan]

So now my name is Daniel?

Yes, in every sense that matters, I consider myself out of the Church. I'm active in the sense that I attend all the standard meetings and even the ward activities. There are many people like this believe it or not. Every ward has them.

Again, the bishop tried to reactivate me with a calling but I informed him I could not do so in good conscience. My hypocrisy only goes so far.

[_Runtu]

It is also interesting that the solution to historical questions and doubts, per Gordon, is to read faith-affirming LDS publications. Outside sources seem to be implicitly condemned.

If one is going to make a life changing decision such as leaving a
church, it should be based on more than one disturbing fact, or on
reading one disturbing book, or worse, a few articles from an Internet
web site. More research is always necessary to understand the
historical and textual context of the history you have read.

A few articles from an [a single?] Internet web site?

The always-necessary "more research" is equated here with faith-affirming publications. What about "more research" from ex-Mormons, from never-Mo's, from doubting members?

Does anyone leave the LDS Church because of "one disturbing fact, or on reading one disturbing book, or worse, a few articles from an Internet web site?"

It's interesting that FAIR is acknowledging the difficulty for doubting members of learning LDS history but also suggesting that the problems are isolatable, miniscule, and a result of a failure to do "more research."

CKS

That's what irritates me about stuff like this. It always comes down to our not doing enough homework. Nope, we read one little problem, and we bailed. With people like Gordon minimizing the reasons we leave, they will do nothing to "help" those who will leave over the same issues.

[_beastie]

Daniel, I went back and found your post.

"I’m inactive as far as tithe paying goes, and having a traditional testimony (I believe the Book of Mormon is inspired but not history) But I still attend and take part in Church activities. I guess you could say I have downgraded myself to cultural Mormonism. The irony is that most Mormons are cultural Mormons. Meaning, they show up for social reasons not because they actually know anything about Mormonism. They know squat about LDS doctrine and Church history.

Tell it to my bishop and ask him if he thinks I should be excommunicated. His name is Isaac Cain. He is constantly being told by other gospel teachers that I’m the most knowledgeable person there. He is trying to get me to hold a calling even though I told him my testimony-free status makes me unworthy. "

I see you stated your situation as a cultural Mormon. Next time I read "cultural Mormon" I will read "inactive."

The question still stands. As a cultural Mormon you consider yourself to have left the Church?

The irony is that MADdites are quite willing to make this distinction themselves, while Charity seems incapable of even recognizing it. Some of the critics who post on MAD are actually active members of the church - they just don't believe in it. These people are certainly classified with those who have "left" the church, as the term is usually understood - left in terms of no longer believing the church's primary truth claims.

In fact, there are some MADdites who have a special loathing for these people, who usually remain active for familial reasons. They are the hypocrites, the wolves in sheep's clothing, according to them.

But Charity apparently doesn't get it.

[_charity]

That's what irritates me about stuff like this. It always comes down to our not doing enough homework. Nope, we read one little problem, and we bailed. With people like Gordon minimizing the reasons we leave, they will do nothing to "help" those who will leave over the same issues.

What do you suggest that "help" would or could be?

[_Runtu]

That's what irritates me about stuff like this. It always comes down to our not doing enough homework. Nope, we read one little problem, and we bailed. With people like Gordon minimizing the reasons we leave, they will do nothing to "help" those who will leave over the same issues.

What do you suggest that "help" would or could be?

It's quite simple. If people have issues about church history and you all want them to regain their faith, you need to help them resolve those issues. Dismissively saying that people are leaving over one issue is not going to help them resolve even that one issue.

[_Zoidberg]

In fact, there are some MADdites who have a special loathing for these people, who usually remain active for familial reasons. They are the hypocrites, the wolves in sheep's clothing, according to them.

But Charity apparently doesn't get it.

Sure she does. She has just temporarily suspended the notion.

Unless you meant to say that there are members of the Church of the devil among those who are officially LDS.

I think there probably are. There are some people who are apostate and operating under the radar. Wolves in sheep's clothing.

Now let's wait for charity to come in and say something to the effect of "That's not what I said".

[_charity]

The irony is that MADdites are quite willing to make this distinction themselves, while Charity seems incapable of even recognizing it. Some of the critics who post on MAD are actually active members of the church - they just don't believe in it. These people are certainly classified with those who have "left" the church, as the term is usually understood - left in terms of no longer believing the church's primary truth claims.

In fact, there are some MADdites who have a special loathing for these people, who usually remain active for familial reasons. They are the hypocrites, the wolves in sheep's clothing, according to them.

But Charity apparently doesn't get it.

I get it that not everyone is on the same page, or at the same level of understanding. I don't grade people or try to determine who has a stronger testimony, etc. But I am interested in members' own assessments of their situation.

Wolves in sheeps' clothing? Only if they try to undermine the faith of others from inside the Church. People are more vulnerable to inside influences than outside because they trust them.

[_charity]

What do you suggest that "help" would or could be?

It's quite simple. If people have issues about church history and you all want them to regain their faith, you need to help them resolve those issues. Dismissively saying that people are leaving over one issue is not going to help them resolve even that one issue.[/quote]

That is just the assessment. Scott Gordon and the other FAIRites devote hours of their time, without pay for their own work and then on top of that donating their own money for operating expenses, to help resolve those issues.

[_Zoidberg]

Wolves in sheeps' clothing? Only if they try to undermine the faith of others from inside the Church.

Now does this just include ward members or a larger circle of people? What about a conversation with friends who happen to be Mormon in a non-church setting? What about message boards where church members are likely to congregate?

You get the point.

Or is it more about intention? I guess it would have to be; otherwise, MAD could boast a big closet full of sheep outfits in the latest style.

[_Runtu]

That is just the assessment. Scott Gordon and the other FAIRites devote hours of their time, without pay for their own work and then on top of that donating their own money for operating expenses, to help resolve those issues.

The assessment is wrong and, frankly, insulting. If it makes you guys feel better to say that we leave out of pettiness or ignorance, that's fine. What I am saying is that if you really want to help people like me stay in the church, smug dismissals of our very real experiences are not going to help.