FAIR Journal - Message from Gordy

[_charity]

Are you a crackpot or a yahoo with an old rehashed anti-Mormon argument?

She might not be, but I am. :)

If not, then that doesn't apply to you, does it? However, if you are, then no, the Church doesn't need to use its time and resources to respond to you.

I find it interesting that some people self-identify and then get mad about it.

Most people just get mad about backhanded slams (like the preceding).

C'mon, runtu. If I say, "everyone in the room who believes in little green men in space ships is a little loony" why would someone jump up and say, "How dare you call me loony?" Do you see the problem here. With the response, they have identified that they believe in little green men in space ships. They are the ones who made the tacit agreement that the believe in little green men. That si self-identificaiton.

[_Runtu]

C'mon, runtu. If I say, "everyone in the room who believes in little green men in space ships is a little loony" why would someone jump up and say, "How dare you call me loony?" Do you see the problem here. With the response, they have identified that they believe in little green men in space ships. They are the ones who made the tacit agreement that the believe in little green men. That si self-identificaiton.

I see your point, but I agree with Zoidberg that the clear implication is that those who disagree with the church are crackpots and yahoos with rehashed anti-Mormon arguments. The FAIR folks seem to be saying they only have time to deal with some of the crackpots and yahoos, but not all.

So, the self-identification is that Zoidberg disagrees with the church.

[_Yoda]

Well, maybe I'm too close to this issue, but when your "caustic" friends ridicule my depression, tell me that my suicidal feelings are my own fault because I left the church, say I'm in big trouble with God because I "know better," call me a hypocrite, liar, "wolf in sheep's clothing," whiner, loser, moron, and so on, I tend to see that as hate.

That's how I tend to see it as well.

[Anonymous]

What do you suggest that "help" would or could be?

It's quite simple. If people have issues about church history and you all want them to regain their faith, you need to help them resolve those issues. Dismissively saying that people are leaving over one issue is not going to help them resolve even that one issue.

That is just the assessment. Scott Gordon and the other FAIRites devote hours of their time, without pay for their own work and then on top of that donating their own money for operating expenses, to help resolve those issues.

Which is a fool's errand, because no matter how much unpaid, volunteer time they spend, they can't make Joseph Smith a true prophet. He already was not what he claimed to be over 160+ years ago, and nothing we do now can change that.

If you could go back in time and convince Joseph Smith not to release the Book of Abraham, you might make it a little harder on people today to realize that he wasn't a true prophet, but you can't.

If you could go back in time and convince Joseph Smith, before he ever even met Fanny Alger, to keep his dick in his pants and actually be faithful to his wife Emma, and to act with integrity instead of sneaking around behind her back, writing love letters to dozens of other women which he begs them to burn so that his wife Emma can't find out, etc., you might make it harder for people to realize he wasn't a true prophet.

If you could go back in time and convince Joseph Smith to leave married women alone and let them live out their lives in joy with their actual husbands, instead of pursuing them despite their existing marriages, trying to get in the sack with them, perhaps you could make it harder for people nowadays to realize he wasn't a true prophet.

If you could go back in time and invent a guy named Lehi in Jerusalem in 600 BC and convince him to go to the Americas, and found two great nations of Israelitish people over there, and get them to keep records of their doings on golden plates, and to believe (starting in 600 BC and onwards) to believe in Jesus Christ, you might make it harder for people nowadays to realize that Joseph Smith wasn't a true prophet.

If you could go back to Missouri in 1838 and tell Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon to shut their f*cking pieholes and not egg on the Missourians, and disband the Danites, and stop of the more obnoxious behaviors that helped turn the Missourians against them, perhaps not only would the Saints still be living in Zion today, but you would make it harder for people to realize that Joseph Smith wasn't a true prophet.

For that matter, if you could go back in time to Kirtland before Joseph Smith even got chased out of Ohio, and stopped the various crap he got himself into there which caused so many to leave the church and turn against him, perhaps the Oliver Cowdery and the Whitmers and a much smaller band of Saints would have been able to integrate themselves successfully in Missouri and not gotten the Missourians on their case in the Caldwell/Daviess county areas at all, and made it harder for people to realize that Joseph Smith wasn't a true prophet.

Charity, and Scott if you're reading this, there's a whole early Mormon history that clearly is the history of a church invented and lead by Man and not by God, which you'd have to go back and erase or alter, in order to make it easier for people to continue believing that Joseph Smith was a true prophet.

Trying to "help" people continue to believe in a thing that is simply not true is no help at all, IMHO.

[_charity]

I know selek personally, but not hammer. I haven't seen anything that selek posts on MA&D which is objectionable. Hammer is a little over the top, as far as I am concerned. But only very occasionally. They call things as they seem them, but are not anything like the name calling juveniles that post here.

You must have missed the part where selek told mms to take the cap off the Preparation H before shoving it up his rectum. Is that somehow less objectionable than Merc's use of profanity?

I did miss that. Shame on him.

[_Zoidberg]

I get it. When charity perceives information that simply isn't there, it's really me hallucinating. Here I am thinking she somehow drew a conclusion that I self-identify as a crackpot and/or search engine:) despite me never saying anything to the effect. I should stop assuming my senses aren't lying to me.

Here I am thinking that one need not be a member of a targeted group to point out the objectionable character of an epithet, but I guess I must have been smoking some of the WoW herb that gramps is always talking about. I mean, everyone knows that pointing out that it's not very nice to call black people the N-word is only okay if you are black. Or at least identify yourself as a black person. Silly me.

[_Zoidberg]

So, the self-identification is that Zoidberg disagrees with the church.

I do disagree with the Church on some things, but it's not the point. I don't think it's okay to insinuate that only people with low IQ want to remain LDS, either. That would be smug.

Of course, juliann already thinks I'm smug, so I guess there's nothing really I can do. The gods have spoken.

[_Yoda]

Like you said, FAIR and MA&D aren't the same thing. I only know a couple of the "more caustic" folk on MA&D. They have different posting styles than mine. I suppose it is pretty much the same thing as merc's insults, that we are all supposed to be tolerant of. You know, that tolerance and openess that makes this board such a wonderful place to be compared to MA&D.

You're right. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I hold the standards of FAIR/MAD to a different level. (Or, at least, I did. I was sadly disillusioned.)

When I first came to FAIR, I was honestly seeking answers. I had to repeat 10-15 times that I was a temple recommend holding Church member, after being told by Juliann a.k.a. Dunamis that I was a troll. It was actually Dale, a member of the reorganized Church, who took me under his wing and helped me.

Even after I befriended people, and was eventually invited to be a Mod for the board, I couldn't seem to get through to the pro-LDS folks that you don't have to spit venom every time an argument doesn't go your way.

Do I expect more out of LDS folks? Of course I do! Don't you? Shouldn't we?

One thing that you will see about this board that does differ from FAIR/MAD, Charity, is that we are up front about how we do things here. The rules don't change mid-stream. The moderators don't hide under an additional smoke screen.

I will say that the MAD board has improved in how they are currently running things from a couple of aspects. They are as caustic to critics as ever, but at least they're up front about it in their rules. And, let's be honest. That's the main reason that FAIR wanted to disengage from the FAIR Message Board in the first place. In my opinion, and, I think in the opinion of others, the message board was giving the Church a bad name.

[_Runtu]

So, the self-identification is that Zoidberg disagrees with the church.

I do disagree with the Church on some things, but it's not the point. I don't think it's okay to insinuate that only people with low IQ want to remain LDS, either. That would be smug.

No, I think there are many legitimate reasons to remain LDS. I know many people who have wrestled with the tough issues and come out on the side of faith. I respect that.

Of course, juliann already thinks I'm smug, so I guess there's nothing really I can do. The gods have spoken.

Well, if juliann says so ... ;)

If I weren't such a board nanny ...

[_Runtu]

I will say that the MAD board has improved in how they are currently running things from a couple of aspects. They are as caustic to critics as ever, but at least they're up front about it in their rules.

I agree with this. My problems with the FAIR/MAD folks have in large part stemmed from having naïvely assumed that the same rules applied to everyone, but I was mistaken. But at least they're more up front about that than they used to be.