Sethbag wrote:To be honest I really don't give a rat's butt if Marinda Hyde executed an affidavit claiming to have had sex with Joseph Smith while her real husband was out of town or not.
Sorry; I am into evidence. High quality or low quality, and I'll form judgments based on the quality. The wife affidavits the church submitted are high quality. The fact that we don't have such from Marinda or Zina means something, doesn't it? Don't you want to credit the source of statements when you evaulate evidence, especially that which pertains to a despised religion?
Or, are you into a rat's ass approach -- damn everything that comes from the Morg -- truth as well be damned.
Come on! Joseph Smith was flirting and sleeping with women prior to the plural marriage revelation. Emma did not accept the princible as she did not go to Utah and practice it and she was not destroyed as the revelation said she was going to be. She died as an old lady.
Joseph better worry more about when he crossed county lines with a group of armed men and ambushed state militia at crooked creek. A militia member died from that attack which was illegal and immoral. He may be sleeping in the same kingdom as King David. And David's involvement in the husband's death was likely less than Joseph's in the crooked creek incident.
Sethbag wrote:To be honest I really don't give a rat's butt if Marinda Hyde executed an affidavit claiming to have had sex with Joseph Smith while her real husband was out of town or not.
Sorry; I am into evidence. High quality or low quality, and I'll form judgments based on the quality. The wife affidavits the church submitted are high quality. The fact that we don't have such from Marinda or Zina means something, doesn't it? Don't you want to credit the source of statements when you evaulate evidence, especially that which pertains to a despised religion?
Or, are you into a rat's ass approach -- damn everything that comes from the Morg -- truth as well be damned.
rcrocket
So let's assume that Joseph had no sex with Marinda or Zina. Let's assume that he just married them to be sealed to them. Let us further assume that Orson and Henry believed in the eternal sealing power, that they could be sealed to the woman they loved, their sweethearts.
Why would Joseph need to be sealed to them. This is simply disturbing in and of itself.
Further why did Brigham take Zina for his own. And we know he had sex with her since she had his child.
How do you reconcile this with being required of God and godly behavior?
Jason Bourne wrote:I have no problem with God using flawed men and women. Why does the Church seem to need to paint them as not flawed?
Amen, Jason. This has long been a pet peeve of mine. It could be that some people refuse to take spiritual direction from someone who is not clearly a better commandment-abider than they are.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
Sethbag wrote:How can you guys honestly look at yourselves in the mirror and say out loud, without cringing, that God, the great Elohim, and Jehova his son would require, or even just allow, their Prophet on Earth to actively pursue a woman who has already decided to marry the man she loves, and not give up until she agrees with something so contrary to all scriptural precedent, the mores of the time, and common decency? How can you guys honestly pull this off? Have you guys so thoroughly given over your very minds and consciences to the Church, and honestly and truly are untouchable by any notion that contradicts its truth in your mind?
Or are you really as repulsed as the rest of us are by these shenanigans, but doing your best to write it all off as the reaction of a flawed paradigm that must be altered until Joseph was still a righteous man and a true Prophet, a la David Bokovoy?
Joseph's behavior, in the matter of polygamy, was often vile. I have little sympathy for the man when it comes to this. If a so-called prophet of the LDS Church had come to chase after my wife in that day and age, I would have fed his testicles to my dogs.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
Sethbag wrote:To be honest I really don't give a rat's butt if Marinda Hyde executed an affidavit claiming to have had sex with Joseph Smith while her real husband was out of town or not.
Sorry; I am into evidence. High quality or low quality, and I'll form judgments based on the quality. The wife affidavits the church submitted are high quality. The fact that we don't have such from Marinda or Zina means something, doesn't it? Don't you want to credit the source of statements when you evaulate evidence, especially that which pertains to a despised religion?
There is plenty of evidence that a plural marriage to Joseph Smith meant sex. This is well-enough established as a norm, and I don't see any good reason to believe that Joseph Smith didn't have sex with any particular "plural wife" unless there's some good evidence backing that up. This isn't a court of law. We're not proving to a 12 person jury that Joseph Smith should be convicted of having sex with a woman he considered to be his wife. We're deciding what we believe happened, and I believe it's perfectly justifiable to believe that Joseph Smith had sex with Marinda Hyde.
For the love of Pete, Crockett, you believe all kinds of things about the LDS church with no more proof than a good feeling in your heart, and now you're getting on my case because I believe Joseph Smith probably had sex with a woman he considered to be his wife, when it's clear from ample proof that in so many other of his plural "marriages" he did exactly that?
Or, are you into a rat's ass approach -- damn everything that comes from the Morg -- truth as well be damned.
rcrocket
No, not damn anything that came from the Morg. Damn Joseph Smith for pursuing other mens' wives. Damn Joseph Smith for lying about it, and deceiving his own long-suffering wife. Damn Joseph Smith for manipulating and coercing young girls and women into "marrying" him even when they didn't want to. And damn Joseph Smith for foisting a fraud upon so many people, resulting in even very intelligent people such as yourself still living in a fantasy world where he really was a righteous man and Prophet of God.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Crockett, you cannot possibly not believe that Joseph really did pursue other mens' wives. YOu cannot possibly not believe that Joseph Smith, a married man with already other spiritual wives in secret, secretly courted Zina, even though she was in love with Henry. You can't possibly not believe that Joseph Smith continued courting her even after she rejected Joseph Smith's entreaties and married Henry instead. You cannot possibly not believe that Joseph Smith continued courting Zina even while pregnant and giving birth to Henry's children. You cannot possibly not believe that these things happened. All I can suppose is that you must believe it all happened, but that it was perfectly fine that it did.
In other words, your moral compass is out of whack because you are having to defend the indefensible. You are put into a position because of your testimony where you are having to call good evil, and evil good. You are having to justify a charlatan, a deceiver, a womanizer, and a lying sack of chit who put his wife through what can only be called a sheer hell with his lies, deceipt, and incessant womanizing.
You look at yourself in the mirror. Look into your own eyes. Tell yourself, out loud, that it was OK for Joseph Smith to court Zina Diantha Jacobs even after she rejected him and married another man instead. You look at yourself in the mirror, stare into your own eyes, and tell yourself, out loud, that Zina could be pregnant and bearing Henry's child and still it was OK for Joseph Smith to be trying to convince her to "marry" him anyway.
And while looking yourself in the eye, say out loud that it was fine for Joseph Smith to be lying his butt off to Emma, most of his family, most church members, and the world about all this that was going on. It was perfectly fine in the eyes of God for Joseph Smith to proclaim publicly that he was not doing what in fact in secret he was in fact doing, and on an almost industrial scale.
How have you let yourself get into this position, Crockett? How can you look yourself in the eye and tell yourself these things and actually believe it, deep down in your heart of hearts? You're an attorney, for Cripes sake. You're a smart guy. You know bullchit when you see it, and yet what is it creating these blindspots in your mind, which you so willingly defend, that makes you incapable of seeing how much CRAP Joseph Smith your beloved Prophet did, in the name of God, which is about as far from Godly as you can imagine?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Sethbag wrote:To be honest I really don't give a rat's butt if Marinda Hyde executed an affidavit claiming to have had sex with Joseph Smith while her real husband was out of town or not.
Sorry; I am into evidence. High quality or low quality, and I'll form judgments based on the quality. The wife affidavits the church submitted are high quality. The fact that we don't have such from Marinda or Zina means something, doesn't it? Don't you want to credit the source of statements when you evaulate evidence, especially that which pertains to a despised religion?
Or, are you into a rat's ass approach -- damn everything that comes from the Morg -- truth as well be damned.
rcrocket
So let's assume that Joseph had no sex with Marinda or Zina. Let's assume that he just married them to be sealed to them. Let us further assume that Orson and Henry believed in the eternal sealing power, that they could be sealed to the woman they loved, their sweethearts.
Why would Joseph need to be sealed to them. This is simply disturbing in and of itself.
Further why did Brigham take Zina for his own. And we know he had sex with her since she had his child.
How do you reconcile this with being required of God and godly behavior?
I have my views about both these women. Why don't we first start with their affidavits? Are there any -- from them?
Aren't you interested in the quality of the evidence against Brigham and Joseph? Or, do you accept all attacks against a despised religion with the same eye?
Crockett, I can totally see what's going on here. You're trying to set up a conversation where you can play lawyer games and try to nitpick at us, but in fact you know very well that Joseph Smith courted Zina before she married Henry Jacobs, after she married Henry Jacobs, and that he finally wore her down and got her and Henry to agree to a bizarre three-way "marriage" with her after she'd already born Henry children. And now you want to discuss the "quality of the evidence"? What, do you think you're going to cast some doubt on the overall picture here?
You know very well that Joseph did all this stuff. You don't care. All you care about is playing word games and nitpicking this and that, as if that helps. Heads up, bro: it doesn't help. You can play whatever games you want, and Joseph Smith was still a scumbag where women were concerned, and where his wife was concerned. You know all of this, and yet you don't care. You are too committed to your testimony of the church and to all that you've poured into the church throughout your life. You have given your mind over to it, and all the facts, and all the evidence, in the world will not shake you. You've chosen not to let it, and by God it won't. So why are you asking for affidavits? If they had given such, and someone provided them to you, would you change your tune on Joseph Smith? Somehow I highly doubt it. You've made your bed.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen