FAIR Journal - Message from Gordy

[_dartagnan]

I wonder who looks bad in this? Sounds to me like Ritner's act was one of "you can't fire me, I quit." Since Dr. Gee got his ph. d. at Yale, it seems to me some members of his committee must have thought he was more credible than Ritner.

And the stupid comments keep piling up.

This sounds like "speculation" on your part charity. And it judges someone negatively. I guess that makes it spurious and evil.

The fact is Dan Peterson and John Gee have been spreading this vicious rumor that is probably nothing but bunk. Robert Ritner caught wind of their attempts to discredit him in this way, so he is willing to disclose all the emails pertinent to this situation if Dan and John keep propagating this rumor. Instead of standing their ground like men, they are dead silent.

I suspect Ritner will comment on this in the upcoming book edited by Brent Metcalfe. He is writing an article in response to more Gee nonsense.

[_charity]

If you weren't so blinded by your anger, you would see the steady trickle of affirming evidence.

Maybe you should start a thread on this trickle of evidence. When I asked Dr. Peterson about this subject, he sent me to a John Clark article that was less than affirming.

I will answer you, runtu. Kevin's little boy discussion tactics with all his name calling doesn't deserve a response.

Evidence.

I assume you are aware of the Apocalypse of Abraham, which was translated in the ealry 1900's. Of couse they aren't identical, but they are obviously related. If you don't think there is a relationship, there are only a couple of options: Landsman and Box plagarized their translation from the Book of Abraham, or Joseph was the best guesser that ever lived.

Check it out and let me know what you think.

And about Ritner. The facts are these.

*Ritner left (either on his own or was requested to) Gee's dissertation committee. Gee still got his ph. d. I know a little about academia. If a person left a committe in protest that the dissertation was "garbage" and the rest of the committee disagreed and awarded the degree anyway, it would be a real slap at the departing individual. That person would have lost a lot of credibility with his/her colleagues.

*Ritner has written about Book of Abraham topics using very unscholarly language, looking really as though he has a philosophical axe to grind, rather than doing the scholar's work.

*Ritner has a book either being published or already published by Signature books. Signature isn't exactly an academic publishing company. Enough said about Ritner?

Kevin keeps saying I am lying when I say a person I referred to in a post wasn't him. He is just flat out wrong. But he keeps bringing it up over and over and over, as though he wants to beat himself with a stick. If your only defense is that everybody else is lying, that is pretty telling.

[_dartagnan]

I will answer you, runtu. Kevin's little boy discussion tactics with all his name calling doesn't deserve a response.

The reason you won’t respond is because we all know you cannot answer the question.

You know you won’t tell us who you had in mind because it would prove my point.

Also, you cannot tell us what source Gee used for his “formula.”

How is that?

I mean you guys wouldn’t be so critically bankrupt that you would just buy something someone sells you without looking into it, would you?

And about Ritner. The facts are these.

Who the hell are you to tell us facts about Ritner? Hell, even Dan Peterson can’t get his facts straight and he has been scared into silence. Now, you of all people, are going to come tell us the full scoop about Ritner?

*Ritner left (either on his own or was requested to) Gee's dissertation committee.

According to Ritner he left because Gee didn’t do the work that he requires of his students. Others require less work but Gee was in a rush because BYU had already held a position for him. So he was looking to rush through the process.

According to Peterson and Gee, Ritner was “removed,” and they leave it up to the readers to draw the worst possible conclusions.

Gee still got his ph. d.

From a less demanding Professor, apparently. Ritner was the cream of the crop there, and he was not interested in Gee’s impatience with the process. So he left it to others to deal with. He never said Gee should not have received a doctorate, he just said he wasn’t going to put his name on it.

I know a little about academia. If a person left a committe in protest that the dissertation was "garbage" and the rest of the committee disagreed and awarded the degree anyway, it would be a real slap at the departing individual. That person would have lost a lot of credibility with his/her colleagues.

You’re right, you know little. Ritner never said he “protested.” He simply wasn’t willing to go along with the fast-food version of earning a Ph.D that Gee and BYU wanted.

Ritner has written about Book of Abraham topics using very unscholarly language

You obviously know little about scholarship as well. But what the hell does this have to do with the fact that Gee and Peterson propagated a false rumor and now they are closed-lipped once Ritner threatened to share all pertinent emails to the general public?

looking really as though he has a philosophical axe to grind, rather than doing the scholar's work.

You’ve bought into the ruse that Peterson and Gee set up for everyone to believe, but you do so in ignorance, without the slightest care about what Ritner has to say. Peterson and Gee have spoken, and for you that’s enough. The fact is there is no axe to grind here. Ritner gave Gee excellent grades because he earned them. But he was not going to be part of a rush program just because he had a job waiting for him.

Ritner has a book either being published or already published by Signature books. Signature isn't exactly an academic publishing company. Enough said about Ritner?

You’re such an idiot. You’re pulling out every card used by the apologetic front. Try to discredit an author any way possible because you cannot deal with the arguments. The fact is Robert Ritner is one of the top scholars on the planet in his field of expertise. Gee, Peterson and Nibley could never meet up to his prestige.

[_dartagnan]

I will answer you, runtu. Kevin's little boy discussion tactics with all his name calling doesn't deserve a response.

The reason you won’t respond is because we all know you cannot answer the question.

You know you won’t tell us who you had in mind because it would prove my point.

Also, you cannot tell us what source Gee used for his “formula.”

How is that?

I mean you guys wouldn’t be so critically bankrupt that you would just buy something someone sells you without looking into it, would you?

And about Ritner. The facts are these.

Who the hell are you to tell us facts about Ritner? Hell, even Dan Peterson can’t get his facts straight and he has been scared into silence. Now, you of all people, are going to come tell us the full scoop about Ritner?

*Ritner left (either on his own or was requested to) Gee's dissertation committee.

According to Ritner he left because Gee didn’t do the work that he requires of his students. Others require less work but Gee was in a rush because BYU had already held a position for him. So he was looking to rush through the process.

According to Peterson and Gee, Ritner was “removed,” and they leave it up to the readers to draw the worst possible conclusions.

Gee still got his ph. d.

From a less demanding Professor, apparently. Ritner was the cream of the crop there, and he was not interested in Gee’s impatience with the process. So he left it to others to deal with. He never said Gee should not have received a doctorate, he just said he wasn’t going to put his name on it.

I know a little about academia. If a person left a committe in protest that the dissertation was "garbage" and the rest of the committee disagreed and awarded the degree anyway, it would be a real slap at the departing individual. That person would have lost a lot of credibility with his/her colleagues.

You’re right, you know little. Ritner never said he “protested.” He simply wasn’t willing to go along with the fast-food version of earning a Ph.D that Gee and BYU wanted.

Ritner has written about Book of Abraham topics using very unscholarly language

You obviously know little about scholarship as well. But what the hell does this have to do with the fact that Gee and Peterson propagated a false rumor and now they are closed-lipped once Ritner threatened to share all pertinent emails to the general public?

looking really as though he has a philosophical axe to grind, rather than doing the scholar's work.

You’ve bought into the ruse that Peterson and Gee set up for everyone to believe, but you do so in ignorance, without the slightest care about what Ritner has to say. Peterson and Gee have spoken, and for you that’s enough. The fact is there is no axe to grind here. Ritner gave Gee excellent grades because he earned them. But he was not going to be part of a rush program just because he had a job waiting for him.

Ritner has a book either being published or already published by Signature books. Signature isn't exactly an academic publishing company. Enough said about Ritner?

You’re such an idiot. You’re pulling out every card used by the apologetic front. Try to discredit an author any way possible because you cannot deal with the arguments. The fact is Robert Ritner is one of the top scholars on the planet in his field of expertise. Gee, Peterson and Nibley could never meet up to his prestige. These guys publish more with an apologetic organization like FARMS.

[_harmony]

*Ritner has written about Book of Abraham topics using very unscholarly language, looking really as though he has a philosophical axe to grind, rather than doing the scholar's work.

He expressed his expert opinion, if I recall correctly. How is that unscholarly?

[_charity]

Gee still got his ph. d.

From a less demanding Professor, apparently. Ritner was the cream of the crop there, and he was not interested in Gee’s impatience with the process. So he left it to others to deal with. He never said Gee should not have received a doctorate, he just said he wasn’t going to put his name on it.

Kevin obviously doesn't know that one professor does not approve a ph.d. Committees do. Even the institution which gave me a master's degree (and it wasn't nearly as top notch as Yale) really put their graduate students through their paces to get degrees. I am surprised Kevin thinks that one professor can grant a ph.d.

Ritner has written about Book of Abraham topics using very unscholarly language looking really as though he has a philosophical axe to grind, rather than doing the scholar's work.

You’ve bought into the ruse that Peterson and Gee set up for everyone to believe, but you do so in ignorance, without the slightest care about what Ritner has to say. Peterson and Gee have spoken, and for you that’s enough. The fact is there is no axe to grind here. Ritner gave Gee excellent grades because he earned them. But he was not going to be part of a rush program just because he had a job waiting for him.

YOu may not be aware of a review of Ritner's revised version of a earlier publication of his on the Book of Breathings. (By Larry Morris.) Rittnerfails in scholarship by failing to mention another work on the subject and claiming his was the only one. After protesting against "scurrilous" personal attacks on himself, he then goes on to make such attacks on Joseph Smith.

Ritner has a book either being published or already published by Signature books. Signature isn't exactly an academic publishing company. Enough said about Ritner?

You’re such an idiot. You’re pulling out every card used by the apologetic front. Try to discredit an author any way possible because you cannot deal with the arguments. The fact is Robert Ritner is one of the top scholars on the planet in his field of expertise.

Many otherwise excellent scholars have been known to forget their training when they get on some kind of a crusade. It sure sounds to me like this is what has happened to Ritner.

Gee, Peterson and Nibley could never meet up to his prestige.

This is another one of those juvenile little boy behaviors. The subject here is Ritner. When you bring in other people to try to insult, you are just making your argument look even weaker.

[_harmony]

Kevin obviously doesn't know that one professor does not approve a ph.d. Committees do.

Committees that are run by individual professors.

YOu may not be aware of a review of Ritner's revised version of a earlier publication of his on the Book of Breathings. (By Larry Morris.) Rittnerfails in scholarship by failing to mention another work on the subject and claiming his was the only one. After protesting against "scurrilous" personal attacks on himself, he then goes on to make such attacks on Joseph Smith.

Good Lord Almighty. The FARMS boys are toast, if neglecting to mention other works on their subjects is that damning.

Many otherwise excellent scholars have been known to forget their training when they get on some kind of a crusade.

Oh, the irony simply drips.

[_charity]

Committees that are run by individual professors.

And how many thesis and dissertation committees have you served on?

YOu may not be aware of a review of Ritner's revised version of a earlier publication of his on the Book of Breathings. (By Larry Morris.) Rittnerfails in scholarship by failing to mention another work on the subject and claiming his was the only one. After protesting against "scurrilous" personal attacks on himself, he then goes on to make such attacks on Joseph Smith.

Good Lord Almighty. The FARMS boys are toast, if neglecting to mention other works on their subjects is that damning.

CFR. Just one who claimed he had written the only book on a subject when there were others, as Ritner did.

Many otherwise excellent scholars have been known to forget their training when they get on some kind of a crusade.

Oh, the irony simply drips.

I know ex-mo's are always claiming that LDS scholars leave their brains in a jar beside their keyboards. Prove it.

[_harmony]

And how many thesis and dissertation committees have you served on?

You will never know. The discussion isn't about me. Did you get your masters in psych from BYU?

Just one who claimed he had written the only book on a subject when there were others, as Ritner did.

That's not what you said. You claimed he hadn't mentioned other sources and claimed to have written the only book. Several of the FARMS boys neglect to mention other sources or even that other sources exist.

I know ex-mo's are always claiming that LDS scholars leave their brains in a jar beside their keyboards. Prove it.

Charity, try to keep us straight. I'm one of the calling holding, temple recommend carrying, active members of the church. I'm not an ex-mo. And anyone who writes outside of their area of expertise doesn't qualify as a scholar, no matter what their religion. Ritner is well within his field when he writes about the Book of Abraham.

[_Trevor]

Kevin obviously doesn't know that one professor does not approve a ph.d. Committees do. Even the institution which gave me a master's degree (and it wasn't nearly as top notch as Yale) really put their graduate students through their paces to get degrees. I am surprised Kevin thinks that one professor can grant a ph.d.

Actually, it seems that you know very little about BYU's hiring practices. BYU has in the past hired many people ABD, and tried to snatch them up as soon as possible. It makes perfect sense to me that Ritner was put off by the fact that Gee was trying to finish ASAP without having done what Ritner required. Some professors will cooperate, if one has a job waiting, others will not. I have personally witnessed similar issues with BYU jobs and students finishing their dissertations to get hired there.

YOu may not be aware of a review of Ritner's revised version of a earlier publication of his on the Book of Breathings. (By Larry Morris.) Rittnerfails in scholarship by failing to mention another work on the subject and claiming his was the only one. After protesting against "scurrilous" personal attacks on himself, he then goes on to make such attacks on Joseph Smith.

Who is feeding you this stuff? Sounds pretty weird to me.

Ritner has a book either being published or already published by Signature books. Signature isn't exactly an academic publishing company. Enough said about Ritner?

Many otherwise excellent scholars have been known to forget their training when they get on some kind of a crusade. It sure sounds to me like this is what has happened to Ritner.

Sounds even more like Gee.

This is another one of those juvenile little boy behaviors. The subject here is Ritner. When you bring in other people to try to insult, you are just making your argument look even weaker.

Is it juvenile behavior, or is it worth asking, at least on some level, who is more likely to be believed in terms of pure Egyptological method--the guy who is not driven by a testimony of Joseph Smith or working for the LDS Church, or two guys who are? From what I have read of Ritner's writing on the subject, it looks like what he is concerned about is the abuse of his discipline in the dubious enterprise of selling crackpot Egyptology a la Joseph Smith.