Ray A.....total nut.

[_Coggins7]

You are twisting my words. They told me the same thing that many other internet Mormons have told me, on Z and FAIR - ie, if the Book of Mormon was the word of God, then Joseph Smith was a true prophet and the church is true.

Fine, and none of this exempts you from a process of finding out for yourself through the principle of revelation whether these things are all true.

What I don't quite understand is how you caved in to the allegations about Joseph, whom you say you only believed in, even though you had a witness of the Book of Mormon, which Joseph, to be intellectually consistent, you must concede must have brought forth in a manner consistent with his own testimony regarding it.

[_Ray A]

First, it's interesting you use the passive voice here: "it was written". YOU wrote it Ray.

So did DCP know about you PMing the Z mods "YOUR MISSIONARIES ARE DEAD"? If he did, how did he find out about it? And if he did not, then why are you using his visit with you as proof that it didn't bother him?

You are certainly nitpicking now. Talk about making one an offender for a word. Good grief, how petty do you get?

I doubt DCP knew about this email. I doubt anyone but the mods on Z knew about it, and even you didn't know about it. So how would DCP? The email exchanges we had on Z were sufficiently adverse to sour any potential future harmony, but they didn't. That's because DCP recognised something you don't - that people can change. We have never raised past differences between us, and we recognised that it was now a dead issue. I accepted the blame for our past disagreements, and told him so. And I do believe I was wrong at the time. He clearly saw on FAIR that I had changed from the time we were on Z, and after quite some time on FAIR, we began corresponding again. None of the Z issues were ever raised between us in that correspondence, and it wasn't until I met him in person.

My guess is that this would not have the shock value for him that it has for you. But we know it's not shock in your case, you're just following your role as the Mormon prosecuting attorney. Cal was also a mod on Z., and she definitely would have known about the email. When I posted on FAIR/MAD Cal never raised this issue - not once. And we have only had pleasant exchanges. One thing I do feel bad about is that I never apologised to Cal. Imagine the reactions when I started posting on FAIR over three years ago. There is a possibility Juliann may have known about the email, possibly through Cal. I don't know. However, they allowed me to post freely,and Cal was already posting there. She went by a slightly different scree-name on FAIR, and when I first interacted with her on FAIR she asked me if I knew who she was, and I replied I did. I think she may have had this incident in mind when she asked me that, but I don't know.

The bottom line is that LDS mods knew about this. Mormons tend to be forgiving people, unless you pester them all the time, and constantly attack their Church. This comes from the Book of Mormon, too, because remember King Lamoni was a murderer, before he was converted by Ammon, and Joseph Smith forgave all of his persecutors, but especially those who returned to the Church.

What you want to do is push this issue way beyond what any Mormon would do. Every time you exhale, the word "anti-Mormon" forms like rings of smoke. Maybe you don't see it, but every thread, and nearly every post you do, is a bitch about Mormonism.

[_beastie]

Fine, and none of this exempts you from a process of finding out for yourself through the principle of revelation whether these things are all true.

What I don't quite understand is how you caved in to the allegations about Joseph, whom you say you only believed in, even though you had a witness of the Book of Mormon, which Joseph, to be intellectually consistent, you must concede must have brought forth in a manner consistent with his own testimony regarding it.

How many times do I have to repeat my story before it registers with you? I spent years struggling with my faith, reading more, praying, praying and praying. I even asked variations of the question, to try and give God every opportunity to affirm SOMETHING to me. How long was I supposed to keep praying before I accepted the answer of SILENCE?

According to the church's own teachings, I was completely justified in rejecting Joseph Smith as a true prophet and the LDS church as the "one true church".

Of course Charity once told me that I was asking God "too much" and should have simply continued to live as if I knew it were true as long as need be before God saw fit to answer my question. But that is not what the Book of Mormon nor the church promises. They promise God will answer sincere seekers. I was sincere. I asked over and over. I kept living faithfully despite my doubts. I did not leave the church until I had absolutely no belief left in it at all.

Interestingly, it was after I had already lost my faith that I discovered this change that Joseph Smith made in without comment or explanation:

“And he [Joseph Smith, Jr.] has a gift to translate the book [of Mormon], and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift.”

- Book of Commandments, Ch. 10

became

“And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished.”

- Doctrine and Covenants, Ch. 5, verse 4

If I were ever to become a theist again, I would still believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God. But I would not believe that Joseph Smith had the authority to restore the "one true church".

[_Ray A]

If I were ever to become a theist again, I would still believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God. But I would not believe that Joseph Smith had the authority to restore the "one true church".

I live in hope for that day. But Dawkins will probably beat you to it.

[_beastie]

You are certainly nitpicking now. Talk about making one an offender for a word. Good grief, how petty do you get?

I doubt DCP knew about this email. I doubt anyone but the mods on Z knew about it, and even you didn't know about it. So how would DCP? The email exchanges we had on Z were sufficiently adverse to sour any potential future harmony, but they didn't. That's because DCP recognised something you don't - that people can change. We have never raised past differences between us, and we recognised that it was now a dead issue. I accepted the blame for our past disagreements, and told him so. And I do believe I was wrong at the time. He clearly saw on FAIR that I had changed from the time we were on Z, and after quite some time on FAIR, we began corresponding again. None of the Z issues were ever raised between us in that correspondence, and it wasn't until I met him in person.

My guess is that this would not have the shock value for him that it has for you. But we know it's not shock in your case, you're just following your role as the Mormon prosecuting attorney. Cal was also a mod on Z., and she definitely would have known about the email. When I posted on FAIR/MAD Cal never raised this issue - not once. And we have only had pleasant exchanges. One thing I do feel bad about is that I never apologised to Cal. Imagine the reactions when I started posting on FAIR over three years ago. There is a possibility Juliann may have known about the email, possibly through Cal. I don't know. However, they allowed me to post freely,and Cal was already posting there. She went by a slightly different scree-name on FAIR, and when I first interacted with her on FAIR she asked me if I knew who she was, and I replied I did. I think she may have had this incident in mind when she asked me that, but I don't know.

The bottom line is that LDS mods knew about this. Mormons tend to be forgiving people, unless you pester them all the time, and constantly attack their Church. This comes from the Book of Mormon, too, because remember King Lamoni was a murderer, before he was converted by Ammon, and Joseph Smith forgave all of his persecutors, but especially those who returned to the Church.

What you want to do is push this issue way beyond what any Mormon would do. Every time you exhale, the word "anti-Mormon" forms like rings of smoke. Maybe you don't see it, but every thread, and nearly every post you do, is a bitch about Mormonism.

If DCP didn't even know about the depth of your past vitriol which the PM would have revealed, then the fact he felt comfortable around you means nothing.

And, once again, even if everything you have said about me were true, I have never, and would never, write something as vicious and sick as YOUR MISSIONARIES ARE DEAD.

You are projecting what YOU were like when you were opposing the church onto others. I doubt very many would sink to your level.

[_Coggins7]

If I were ever to become a theist again, I would still believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God. But I would not believe that Joseph Smith had the authority to restore the "one true church".

But of course, this is why the Book of Mormon was restored.

You still have not explained why, if you had a testimony of the Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith was he from whom it came, how you could possibly have lost that testimony except by a sheer act of will.

I also cannot speak to your ancedotes regarding what you claim to have experienced. As you say, this is your story...

I already pointed out to you that I've gone through similar things, and my experience was completely different than yours. Now why might that be?

Oh, I know. I closed my eyes and...

[_Ray A]

You are projecting what YOU were like when you were opposing the church onto others. I doubt very many would sink to your level.

I am not projecting at all. I saw this behaviour on exmo boards, including Exmo-Social. I saw this same spirit on RFM, and read of people wanting to kill missionaries.

One reason I have spoken out is because I realise what happens to people when they let a spirit of anger at Mormonism overcome them.
And you are definitely angry at Mormonism, even if you don't make verbal threats.

[_beastie]

You still have not explained why, if you had a testimony of the Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith was he from whom it came, how you could possibly have lost that testimony except by a sheer act of will.

I had a powerful, numinous experience. There were no audible words, no person appeared to me. Instead, when I prayed "is the Book of Mormon the word of God" I felt as if electricity and light were suddenly poured into every cell of my body. It was an incredible experience.

I interpreted that experience to be God saying "yes, the Book of Mormon is the word of God". This was a quite reasonable interpretation given what the missionaries had just taught me.

It took me years to lose all faith in the church due to this experience, but the more I read about varieties of religious experiences, the more I understood that my experience was hardly unique. People may have different terms for the experience, depending upon their background, but we're describing the same thing. When people experience this they tend to associate it with the rightness of whatever religious path they happen to be on, but these paths contradict the paths of others. So either God is confused, or he doesn't care at all about what particular dogma people embrace. Or he doesn't exist, and the origin of that experience is internal. I believe the latter. Researchers have been exploring the brain processes that occur during this type of numinous events, and it can be explained within the brain, certain regions becoming activated while other regions deactivate. This does not prove that there is no God causing these brain changes, but it does provide a natural explanation for the event.

In other words - contrary to the idea that apostates are proud and arrogant - I accepted that I am one of many human beings who have had such experiences, and I was just trying to figure out what it meant, like everyone else who had had the experience. I remembered some experiences I had on my mission with people of other faiths who attempted to describe their own numinous events. I just didn't have the audacity and ego required to believe that my experience was somehow
"more" or qualitatively different from all of theirs, so I had to reinterpret what that event meant.

This is a natural part of life, Coggins. As we age and gain experience, we alter our views, and change our minds about our former interpretations of life events. To me, it's kind of sad to refuse to even consider doing this.

I have never denied that this happened to me, I just no longer believe that the origin of this event was an external God. The brain is very powerful, and literally creates life for us. This is just one more example of that phenomenon.

See, what you have to do when faced with the numinous events of people of other faiths is to tell yourself that your experience was qualitatively different than theirs, or that they misinterpret what their experience meant, while at the same time insisting it is not possible that it is YOU misinterpreting your experience.

[_beastie]

And you are definitely angry at Mormonism, even if you don't make verbal threats.

Another omniscient being graces us with his presence!!!

No, Ray, I'm not.

[_Ray A]

And you are definitely angry at Mormonism, even if you don't make verbal threats.

Another omniscient being graces us with his presence!!!

No, Ray, I'm not.

Yes, you are.

Did you ever say anything about this exchange between Mercury and Dr. Steuss? (This was a discussion about the MMM):

Dr. Steuss: What will it take to move forward?


Mercury: The murder of 150+ general authorities. Is this acceptable? If the LDS church does not want to see themselves as culpable then they should have no problem with this either. This is harsh, fitting with the LDS church and the eye for an eye blood atonement bullsh*t brigham young preached.

Besides, after the equity from the dead GA's is appropriated we can see where exactly the financial structures lie within the LDS elite. It would be worth it just for that.

BLOOD ATONEMENT!