LDS & ex-LDS Political Ideologies

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Political Leanings & Shift

 
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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Coggins, I think both the left and the right seek to move certain things from the individual sphere into the public domain. I only asked about the left in my question because I was replying to bcspace. I find it humorous actually that both sides accuse the other of doing it as they both do it, yet just choose different areas to focus on.


I don't agree here at all. The Right does seek government regulation of some things (see below), but the Left's entire social and political philosophy revolves around removing as much personal responsibility and autonomy from human life as possible. A Conservative/Libertarian philosophy that left all things alone completely and regulated nothing would be anarchism, which is unworkable as a political system (essentially, direct democracy, or what would eventuate in practice, highly decentralized majority rule).

I agree with you that the left does take from individual (taxes, social programs) and move some things into the public domain. The right does the same: Abortion? Drug use? Most things that are not financial in nature are things the right tends to seek dominion over and remove it from the individual and move that to government domain.


I think this is an apples and oranges comparison. The imposition upon society of the welfare state and the almost limitless expropriation of the fruits of the labor of individual citizens to fund it (and the the citizens who become dependent on government for their subsistence and vote in politically self interested homogeneous blocks to preserve that subsistence at the expense of their fellow citizens) is not at all the same as legal restrictions upon certain behaviors, such as age limits for drinking, driving a vehicle, or conditions under which an abortion can be performed. Society, thorough it deliberative democratic institutions, (legislatures) are to decide for themselves what such limitations should be or whether their be any limitations at all (within the borders of the Constitution).

We limit how fast one can drive, the age at which one can drink, hold a job, and any number of other things. We do not permit people to torture or starve their pets. Abortion is not a constitutional right in any case, and never should have been dealt with by the courts. We limit and sanction prostitution or drug use, not because we are imposting values on others, as the Left does, but because the majority, in a democratic republic, has the right to impose its values upon society as a whole as long as those values and the laws derived from them do not impinge upon other's constitutional rights. Does a restriction upon paying a woman on a street corner for sex deprive anyone of their rights. Well obviously, not unless this can be considered a "right", and not unless it can be shown that in preserving that right, the other individuals in the community will not be harmed as a result. This is also true of drugs. Both liberals and libertarians have a long road to hoe in demonstrating that such social pathologies as prostitution and recreational drug use will not generate further social pathologies that have the potential to threaten the larger unraveling of civil society as a whole (which would then involve serious infringements upon my constitutional rights) such that an argument can be made for their prohibition. This may not be true of all drugs, nor of all sexual activity (no one is talking about picking up a girl at a bar and taking her home).

Using drugs or buying sex (aside from the very live question of whether things like this have any relevance to what the founders meant by "the pursuit of happiness) many not impinge upon my rights directly, but the indirect effects of such phenomena, accumulating over time and spreading more broadly thought a culture, can have deep consequences for the exercise of my rights indeed. The culture of death and the breakdown of the family (and vast social pathologies incident to it) are well within the regulatory umbrella of a democratic society.

Really, this is what the 10th amendment is all about. If California wants abortion legal from the moment of conception to the moment of birth, as Roe accepts and as the Left generally supports as part of its program to erase western enlightenment/Judeo/Christian cultural values and mores, then they may well have it. Other states may limit it to the life of the mother, rape or incest.

When conservatives seek to deny absolute freedom to do as a buffer against the future breakdown of civil society, this is not the same as the Left's imposting Roe on the entire country by unaccountable judicial fiat in the name of an ideological crusade to remake American society.

Saying that you cannot have an abortion for whatever reason you so desire does not move any behavior or choice you may want to make into the public domain, as say, ESA or Wetlands regulation does with property rights. What is does is, like laws against running a red light, impose limits on private behavior within the context of the larger community of which one is a part. Unlike the Left's imposition of prescriptive moral and political demands that usually force one to do something, such abortion restrictions only shift personal responsibility for behavior back to the individual and away from others (if I get pregnant, I'll just get an abortion, no big deal. My insurance will pay for it (or, if I'm a poor female on welfare, the taxpayers) the authorities will cover for me if I'm a minor (anti-parental consent laws), and
I'll essentially just pass the buck on to other organs of society. But if I cannot get an abortion unless under specific conditions (conditions over which I have no control), then perhaps I should think twice about getting pregnant, or, if pregnant, I'll just have to suck it up and take responsibility for the situation).

Most conservative rules in this sense simply alter the cost/benefit analysis of engaging in certain kinds of socially destructive behavior and shift responsibility away from external forces back onto the individual (and that is what the Left despises above all else in these areas).

Of course conservatives and liberals both make laws and rules, but I think two primary differences between the Left and Right are:

1. Most conservatives (except some hard boiled fundamentalist types), believe in limited government;a small, constitutionally constrained state closer that which the Founders constructed that would have far less importance to and intrusion into personal life than at present. Some behaviors would be limited that are not now so limited, but again, much of this only transfers responsibility from external entities back to the individual. It does not limit constitutional freedoms as understood within the constitution itself. I think you will find that most modern conservative intellectuals are actually, to some extent, libertarian conservatives, and embody elements of both philosophies. The one thing that separates conservatives from leftists, and the more extreme libertarians, is the understanding that human freedom is not absolute, and that the constitution does not imply such.

2. The conservative, or Classical Liberal idea is to conserve the best aspects of western civilization and moral order while allowing the culture to develop greater opportunities for human growth and flourishing. This involves both decentralized, limited government, a great deal of personal freedom, but also distinct limits to that freedom as regarding the overall strength and cohesion of the entire society.

The Left, on the other hand, has always been transformative; it has sought the complete remaking of society along quite different lines that those upon which the country was conceived (generally, a franco/germanic philosophical and political template, as opposed to that which arose among English speaking peoples (Liberalism). The Left, from the French Revolution, through Marx and the Cultural Marxists to the New Left and to the present, have a very different conception of human nature and the manner in which human beings should live together in organized societies. They are utterly at odds.


About the left and their victimization of victims I'm really not following you...... I would think feminism (let's agree that would be on the left of the political scale ;) ) had quite a bit with advocating for children and females that were victims and sought to undo injustices in the court systems as well as desperately trying to help those that found themselves as victims.


Well, people were advocating for children a long time before the advent of radical feminism. And yes, the early moderate feminists did have a positive influence on American society and eased some of the ridiculous attitudes left over from older cultural milieus. That feminism, however, is essentially dead, at least as far as national politics is concerned.

Now of course seeking stronger penalties for offenders of criminal behavior would no doubt have supporters on the right. Yet both sides didn't work in isolation and surely you recognize that advocating for victim rights could be seen on both sides of the scale and yet they occurred in different ways.


I'm sure there are many liberals who would advocate for victims rights. However, I know of no liberal groups or organizations, in my lifetime, who have ever done so. The pro-criminal/rehabilitation/criminal rights movement and the victims rights movement split right down left/right lines, as do pro-self defense/anti-gun forces Again, there is a reason for this, but that would take a long post to flesh out.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

I see no difference between the Republican and Democratic parties anymore. Both of them are liars and theives.

I would love to see the dissolution of both parties and more focus on the individuals. But I know this will never happen.

Our system is incredibly corrupt, and nothing is going to change until we stop allowing Lobbyists to fill the pockets of the politicians.

But since "with Gold you can buy anything in this world", I doubt that will happen either.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Coggins7 wrote:
Coggins, I think both the left and the right seek to move certain things from the individual sphere into the public domain. I only asked about the left in my question because I was replying to bcspace. I find it humorous actually that both sides accuse the other of doing it as they both do it, yet just choose different areas to focus on.


I don't agree here at all. The Right does seek government regulation of some things (see below), but the Left's entire social and political philosophy revolves around removing as much personal responsibility and autonomy from human life as possible. A Conservative/Libertarian philosophy that left all things alone completely and regulated nothing would be anarchism, which is unworkable as a political system (essentially, direct democracy, or what would eventuate in practice, highly decentralized majority rule).


Well the Libertarian philosophy is not purely conservative in nature. It would also not seek to regulate social issues such as drug use, prostitution, etc... all of which you allude to later. Libertarian does not fit on the right/left political scale and can't truly be cast along side of conservatism.

You say the left seeks to remove personal responsibility in the social realm as well and the right is more concerned with individual freedoms. I just disagree with you there coggins. The conservatives seek to impress morality through legislation and strip person's autonomy to choose how to treat their own bodies in much legislation historically.

I agree with you that the left does take from individual (taxes, social programs) and move some things into the public domain. The right does the same: Abortion? Drug use? Most things that are not financial in nature are things the right tends to seek dominion over and remove it from the individual and move that to government domain.


I think this is an apples and oranges comparison. The imposition upon society of the welfare state and the almost limitless expropriation of the fruits of the labor of individual citizens to fund it (and the the citizens who become dependent on government for their subsistence and vote in politically self interested homogeneous blocks to preserve that subsistence at the expense of their fellow citizens) is not at all the same as legal restrictions upon certain behaviors, such as age limits for drinking, driving a vehicle, or conditions under which an abortion can be performed. Society, thorough it deliberative democratic institutions, (legislatures) are to decide for themselves what such limitations should be or whether their be any limitations at all (within the borders of the Constitution).


You think it is an apples and oranges comparison because you place more weight and subscribe to one of these ideologies. We're not talking about social ills per se and were rather discussing whether either side had a monopoly on moving issues from the private to public domain. Because you view one side as more antithetical to freedoms that you happen to find more import you find it more acceptable to do so.

Of course citizens through legislation can place limits on freedoms! That's not in dispute. The dispute as to whether one side can be accused of doing what the other side does as well.

We limit how fast one can drive, the age at which one can drink, hold a job, and any number of other things. We do not permit people to torture or starve their pets. Abortion is not a constitutional right in any case, and never should have been dealt with by the courts. We limit and sanction prostitution or drug use, not because we are imposting values on others, as the Left does, but because the majority, in a democratic republic, has the right to impose its values upon society as a whole as long as those values and the laws derived from them do not impinge upon other's constitutional rights. Does a restriction upon paying a woman on a street corner for sex deprive anyone of their rights. Well obviously, not unless this can be considered a "right", and not unless it can be shown that in preserving that right, the other individuals in the community will not be harmed as a result. This is also true of drugs. Both liberals and libertarians have a long road to hoe in demonstrating that such social pathologies as prostitution and recreational drug use will not generate further social pathologies that have the potential to threaten the larger unraveling of civil society as a whole (which would then involve serious infringements upon my constitutional rights) such that an argument can be made for their prohibition. This may not be true of all drugs, nor of all sexual activity (no one is talking about picking up a girl at a bar and taking her home).


Right to privacy isn't found in the constitution either. The federal government through the courts also used the Interstate Commerce Clause to move their scope of power to fight injustices of racial inequalities as well as seek domain over state issues. There are many things that were not seen at one point as 'constitutional' or found within the text with clarity that still does become constitutional in the sense that the justices, the dictates and social consciousness of the day allowed the justices to interpret the text more broadly or narrow that scope. No? So to say one thing is or is not constitutional rather ignores how the justices are the ones that choose this and not those that bristle at their interpretations.

So, you admit that the right does seek to impose morality upon society through legislation. Agreed! That was my point all along. The right does this in order to create a society where they feel those that may damage themselves must be protected by the 'nanny state'. ;)

Using drugs or buying sex (aside from the very live question of whether things like this have any relevance to what the founders meant by "the pursuit of happiness) many not impinge upon my rights directly, but the indirect effects of such phenomena, accumulating over time and spreading more broadly thought a culture, can have deep consequences for the exercise of my rights indeed. The culture of death and the breakdown of the family (and vast social pathologies incident to it) are well within the regulatory umbrella of a democratic society.



Umhum. Like I said, it's wrapped and spun in protecting society by enforcing others moral conscious upon the many........ uh. Are we in agreement that both sides move individual concerns into the larger concerns of society? Yet they do it out of different (at times) motivations and political ideology? I think so!

I have a friend over and she is getting pissy with me and giving me a look so I'll finish with your other points later.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Well the Libertarian philosophy is not purely conservative in nature. It would also not seek to regulate social issues such as drug use, prostitution, etc... all of which you allude to later. Libertarian does not fit on the right/left political scale and can't truly be cast along side of conservatism.


A lot of conservatives would disagree with you here. Libertarianism and conservatism are sibling philosophies, and both are traditionally considered part of the "Right", at least by the Left. William Buckley has used both terms interchangeably for most of his life to describe his own philosophy, and so do I. There is an extreme form (the Ron Paul, Libertarian Party form) that believes in radical personal autonomy and has, with the Left, made a fetish of the concept of freedom. These people can, indeed, make common cause with the Left on occasion on certain issues.

You say the left seeks to remove personal responsibility in the social realm as well and the right is more concerned with individual freedoms. I just disagree with you there coggins. The conservatives seek to impress morality through legislation and strip person's autonomy to choose how to treat their own bodies in much legislation historically.

Quote:

Almost all legislation imposes morality or ethical considerations upon society. This isn't at issue. Drunk driving laws are an imposition of morality. If you take a look at conservative sociel conerns, you will soon see that, in the first place, what you do with your body is your own conern, however, when what you do with your body (heavy uses of drugs, for example) curtails my freedoms, civil rights, and pursuit of happiness, a tension arises in a civil society that must be attended to. Now, do we attend to it by sanctioning or controlling certain behaviors in their embryonic stages, when they are still managable, or do we wait until all of our freedoms are endangered by metastasizing social pathology and cultural dissolution to come to terms with the fact that people living together in a civil, ordered, free society must restrain, and in certain cases, have restraints placed upon both their behavior and their options for behavior in the interest of preserving the liberty of the greater whole.

Conservatism simply sees this in a realistic manner and accepts that men and woman are not angels, and they do this while rejecting statism. The Left worships unfettered hedonism in the social realm, but embraces statist Socialism in the political. In the firsts instance, conservatism rejects the Big Brother state (and anyone who doesn't, like say Pat Buchanan, isn't' really a conservative at all, all protestations to the contrary); it rejects the nanny state as a concept. In the second, in the social realm, it does not prescribe behavior so much as proscribe a limited number of behaviors that are likely to have serious detrimental effects on the fabric of civil society if such behaviors extend to a critical mass of citizens.

The idea that laws against the smoking of pot are an infringement on your freedom is a prickly one to make. It may be true as far as it goes, but keep in mind that your right to get high ends with you crossing the center line and crashing head on into me at 80 miles an hour, just as my right to free speech ends with libel, slander, or incitement to riot. Free, civil society is about a series of trade offs, not about final solutions to social problems or Robinson Crusoe-lke autonomy from community.

For example, given my druthers, I would like to see Marijuana erased from the human experience. I hate Pot with all my heart and soul. I've seen what its done to family members and friends, and I have nothing but contempt for the recreational use of psychoactive drugs (including alcohol). But the question is, do we legalize it? And why? To stop the world wide epidemic of gang violence, corruption, and governmental destabilization that has overrun virtually the world because of the profitability of illegal drugs.

If drugs are legalized, there is no question that there will be a large spike in addiction, medical costs, work absenteeism, psychological problems and family dysfunction caused by increased usage. However, is this cost worth the benefit of a large decrease in criminality? We don't know if it is or not at this point, but if much of the gang violence could be eliminatied in this country (and this is theoretical, it must be said), then should we legalize? Perhaps.

Conservatives would perhaps be against this for good reason; further and accelerated social degeneration caused by a culture of open and free recreational drug usage (and don't think for a minute I'm not aware that most of the pro legalization groups like NORMAL have any such high minded principles at the root of their movement. These are mostly groups of organized drug addicts who simply like to get high and want the stigma of illegal drug usage removed from them)

Its normally understood that Prohibition "created" the great mafia bootleggers of the early 20th century (I put created in quotes because those people were already around and were already criminals when Prohibition began, but Prohibition gave them en entry into a vast market for something that was otherwise legal). National auto accident deaths also declined by half during this period, and then doubled again when Prohibiton was repealed.

Was it worth it? Which trade off is the most positive. To this day, half of all auto fatalities are alcohol related, but we do not ever speak of banning alcohol. Instead, we see TV commercials imploring us not to 'drink and drive". Fat chance of this, of course, once you are intoxicated and your inhibitions and rational thinking are impaired, but we do not speak of making alcohol illegal.

We've made our peace with alcohol, a dangerous, addictive psychoactive drug which we, as as soceity beleive we can live with, despite its heavy social costs.

The fact of the matter is that the Left and Right approach the concept of social costs and trade offs from extreme poles. The Left from a position of moral anarchy and economic collectivism, and the Right from a Classical Liberal position of economic and political liberty blended with a Judeo/Christian social ethos that understands that liberty cannot long continue after a certain critical mass of social pathology generated by individual behavior has been reached.

In other words, at some point, drug usage, family breakdown, an ethos of radical personal autonomy, the destruction of marriage and sexual mores, is going to eventuate in the severe delimitation of the rights and freedoms of everyone in an attempt to restore or maintain civil order.

The funny thing is, the destruction of civil order, the undoing of Western culture, is precisely what the Left has always been seeking. That is what leftist "revolution" is.



































Quote:
I agree with you that the left does take from individual (taxes, social programs) and move some things into the public domain. The right does the same: Abortion? Drug use? Most things that are not financial in nature are things the right tends to seek dominion over and remove it from the individual and move that to government domain.



I think this is an apples and oranges comparison. The imposition upon society of the welfare state and the almost limitless expropriation of the fruits of the labor of individual citizens to fund it (and the the citizens who become dependent on government for their subsistence and vote in politically self interested homogeneous blocks to preserve that subsistence at the expense of their fellow citizens) is not at all the same as legal restrictions upon certain behaviors, such as age limits for drinking, driving a vehicle, or conditions under which an abortion can be performed. Society, thorough it deliberative democratic institutions, (legislatures) are to decide for themselves what such limitations should be or whether their be any limitations at all (within the borders of the Constitution).



You think it is an apples and oranges comparison because you place more weight and subscribe to one of these ideologies. We're not talking about social ills per se and were rather discussing whether either side had a monopoly on moving issues from the private to public domain. Because you view one side as more antithetical to freedoms that you happen to find more import you find it more acceptable to do so.

Of course citizens through legislation can place limits on freedoms! That's not in dispute. The dispute as to whether one side can be accused of doing what the other side does as well.

Quote:

We limit how fast one can drive, the age at which one can drink, hold a job, and any number of other things. We do not permit people to torture or starve their pets. Abortion is not a constitutional right in any case, and never should have been dealt with by the courts. We limit and sanction prostitution or drug use, not because we are imposting values on others, as the Left does, but because the majority, in a democratic republic, has the right to impose its values upon society as a whole as long as those values and the laws derived from them do not impinge upon other's constitutional rights. Does a restriction upon paying a woman on a street corner for sex deprive anyone of their rights. Well obviously, not unless this can be considered a "right", and not unless it can be shown that in preserving that right, the other individuals in the community will not be harmed as a result. This is also true of drugs. Both liberals and libertarians have a long road to hoe in demonstrating that such social pathologies as prostitution and recreational drug use will not generate further social pathologies that have the potential to threaten the larger unraveling of civil society as a whole (which would then involve serious infringements upon my constitutional rights) such that an argument can be made for their prohibition. This may not be true of all drugs, nor of all sexual activity (no one is talking about picking up a girl at a bar and taking her home).



Right to privacy isn't found in the constitution either. The federal government through the courts also used the Interstate Commerce Clause to move their scope of power to fight injustices of racial inequalities as well as seek domain over state issues. There are many things that were not seen at one point as 'constitutional' or found within the text with clarity that still does become constitutional in the sense that the justices, the dictates and social consciousness of the day allowed the justices to interpret the text more broadly or narrow that scope. No? So to say one thing is or is not constitutional rather ignores how the justices are the ones that choose this and not those that bristle at their interpretations.

So, you admit that the right does seek to impose morality upon society through legislation. Agreed! That was my point all along. The right does this in order to create a society where they feel those that may damage themselves must be protected by the 'nanny state'. ;)

Quote:

Using drugs or buying sex (aside from the very live question of whether things like this have any relevance to what the founders meant by "the pursuit of happiness) many not impinge upon my rights directly, but the indirect effects of such phenomena, accumulating over time and spreading more broadly thought a culture, can have deep consequences for the exercise of my rights indeed. The culture of death and the breakdown of the family (and vast social pathologies incident to it) are well within the regulatory umbrella of a democratic society.




Umhum. Like I said, it's wrapped and spun in protecting society by enforcing others moral conscious upon the many........ uh. Are we in agreement that both sides move individual concerns into the larger concerns of society? Yet they do it out of different (at times) motivations and political ideology? I think so!

I have a friend over and she is getting pissy with me and giving me a look so I'll finish with your other points later.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Blixa wrote:That's no to Guiliani, liz.


So, are you a Hillary supporter?
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

monkeys wrote:
coggins wrote:Well the Libertarian philosophy is not purely conservative in nature. It would also not seek to regulate social issues such as drug use, prostitution, etc... all of which you allude to later. Libertarian does not fit on the right/left political scale and can't truly be cast along side of conservatism.


A lot of conservatives would disagree with you here. Libertarianism and conservatism are sibling philosophies, and both are traditionally considered part of the "Right", at least by the Left. William Buckley has used both terms interchangeably for most of his life to describe his own philosophy, and so do I. There is an extreme form (the Ron Paul, Libertarian Party form) that believes in radical personal autonomy and has, with the Left, made a fetish of the concept of freedom. These people can, indeed, make common cause with the Left on occasion on certain issues.


I know they would disagree with me - it's because they've hijacked the Libertarian party and don't quite understand the true philosophy behind it. I'm sure you disagree. As a former member, and organizer, of my local Libertarian party I feel I'm pretty well scripted in the philosophy as well as the political beliefs behind Libertarianism.

They are not sibling philosophies. If you ask a professor of yours to place Libertarianism on the left right political scale where the left goes off into socialism and the right veers off to fascism the Libertarian party does not even fall anywhere on that line. It hovers up somewhere above.

here:
A one-axis model is highly over-simplified, and lumps together fairly different political propositions; in particular, as seen before, there are many ways to define the left-right spectrum, which do not yield the same classifications.

Several of the political philosophies that have arisen over the past two centuries do not fit on the one-dimensional left/right line, in particular anarchism and libertarianism. Anarchism is assumed to be "left", while Libertarianism is assumed to be "right". However, on the one-dimensional spectrum, anarchism shares almost the same position as various forms of Marxism, which is obviously inappropriate. Anarcho-capitalism implies the rejection of government and allow individuals to have total control, while Leninism and other forms of Marxism imply the control by society of many activities, though most anarchists do not consider Anarcho-capitalism to be a form of anarchism. At the other end of the left/right line, Libertarianism finds itself in the same position as fascism, which is equally inappropriate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum

Now that's just from wiki and I'm being lazy this morning but if you search you can find it plotted out existing somewhere out in space apart from the left right scale.



I'll do the rest later....... sorry.... stuff to do.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

They are not sibling philosophies. If you ask a professor of yours to place Libertarianism on the left right political scale where the left goes off into socialism and the right veers off to fascism the Libertarian party does not even fall anywhere on that line. It hovers up somewhere above.



Its going to take a great deal of work to untangle the knots that have been placed in your mind by the Libertarina Party, which subscribes to a particularly anti-intellectual and extreme form of Libertarianism. There is very much in CATO and Austrian lbiertarinaism that is shared by the conservative intellectual movemnet. Your claim that there is not is simply false. There are some things that are not shared, and some of them are fundamental, but only on the extreme finges of the libertarina right do things become really heated.

One of your statements above speaks to the probelm at hand. I don't know what you mean when you say the Left "goes off into socailism". The Left is socialist; leftism is a socialist movement whose primary theroetical sturcture today is Cultural Marxism. The Left veers into Communism at its further pole, but here's the problem: Socialism, Communism, and Fascism are all, themselves sibling philosopohies, originating from similar intellectual backgrounds and sentiments. All of them are colectivist, all totalitarian, and all of them statist. Probably the greatest and most effective myth ever sucessfully perpetrated on the West by the Soviet Union after the breakdown of the Hitler/Stalin pact was the ideat the Fascism and Communism were oppositonal philosophies, the one being on the "right" and the other on "thei left".

Conservatism and Libertarianism, in its mature and most reasonable form, are both heirs to Classical Liberalism, and although libertariansm can and has veered into anarchism (which bings it perilously close to the Left), conservatism, or Classical Liberalism, cannot move into Fascism becasue Fascism is a statist, collectivist, Socialistic philosophy utterly at odss with the core conservative principles of limited government, the rule of law, equality under the law, and individual liberty. Communism is a fascistic poltical system, and German National Socailism had both socialistic and fascistic elements.

Think about it for a while; the KKK or American Nazis are far clsoer in their goals and ideology to leftist Socailism that to anything on the right (big government populism etc). The hated enemy for both Nancy Peolosi and the Grand Dragon of the KKK is conservatism.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

There is very much in CATO and Austrian lbiertarinaism that is shared by the conservative intellectual movemnet. Your claim that there is not is simply false.


Are you sure about that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Insti ... nservatism

Strained relationship with conservatism
In the years immediately following the Republican Revolution, the Cato Institute was often seen as a standard-bearer of the U.S. conservative political movement. Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan, credited with reshaping and rejuvenating the Republican Party, and key contributors to the late-20th century conservative movement, were heavily influenced by libertarian ideals.

However, the Cato Institute officially resists being lumped in with the conservative movement because "conservative smacks of an unwillingness to change, of a desire to preserve the status quo".[8] Such tensions have become increasingly evident in recent years, as the Institute has become sharply critical of current Republican standard bearers.[9] The growing division may be attributable to Republican officeholders' growing support of policies promoting government intervention in the economy and society, increased budgetary spending, and neoconservative foreign policies.

Cato scholars have also been strongly critical of the expansion of executive power under President George W. Bush[10], and his management of the Iraq War.[11] In 2006 and 2007, Cato published two books critical of the Republican Party's perceived abandonment of the limited-government ideals that swept them into power in 1994. [12][13] For their part, only a minority of Republican congressmen supported President George W. Bush’s 2005 proposal to partially privatize Social Security, an idea strongly backed by the Institute. And in the 109th Congress, President Bush's immigration plan—which was based on a proposal by Cato scholar Dan Griswold[14]—went down to defeat largely due to the eventual opposition of conservative Republican congressmen.[15]


Are we talking philosophy or parties here Coggins? I get rather confused when it's not laid out. I was assuming bcspace was talking about right in our country as being the mandate of the Republicans and left the mandate of Democrats. Now Republicans have legislation often that is counter to the conservative philosophy! Could we agree on that?

I don't think I have it mixed up in my mind at all. Me thinks you do.

:)

I don't think the Libertarian party is anti-intellectual. At all! You seem to believe that the party is akin to the right and it is just NOT SO!


The Left veers into Communism at its further pole, but here's the problem: Socialism, Communism, and Fascism are all, themselves sibling philosopohies, originating from similar intellectual backgrounds and sentiments. All of them are colectivist, all totalitarian, and all of them statist. Probably the greatest and most effective myth ever sucessfully perpetrated on the West by the Soviet Union after the breakdown of the Hitler/Stalin pact was the ideat the Fascism and Communism were oppositonal philosophies, the one being on the "right" and the other on "thei left".


Wrong, wrong, wrong! Fascism is on the FAR RIGHT OF THE POLITICAL SCALE! This is poli-sci 101! Just because you don't think so doesn't make your views correct on that matter!
_barrelomonkeys
_Emeritus
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Coggins7 wrote:
Think about it for a while; the KKK or American Nazis are far clsoer in their goals and ideology to leftist Socailism that to anything on the right (big government populism etc). The hated enemy for both Nancy Peolosi and the Grand Dragon of the KKK is conservatism.


Okay, you need to define conservatism for me here Coggins. Is it classical liberalism of Locke? Or the current Republican machine that veers far from this ideological base?

I really don't know what we're talking about? Philosophy or the politics? I think we both could agree that the Republican party is not very philosophically grounded in the classical liberalism anymore. Although there are some that come from this ideological base the legislation speaks differently.
_barrelomonkeys
_Emeritus
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Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:00 pm

Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Also just to look at the term "conservatism" merely means a desire to resist change and to hang onto cultural traditions...... this would indeed be a friend to the KKK. ;)
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