Essay "School Vouchers = Saving Mormon Culture"

[cinepro]

I don't doubt your concerns with the school system, but as you note, you were able to attain a change to the system with lobbying public officials over your math issue.

EXACTLY!

If people got as involved in their public school system as they are in this voucher debate, we could have things changed for the better in no time.

Sorry, vouchers aren't the answer to your problems.

Five years is what it took with extreme parental protest before the ASD gave in and allowed for more traditional (saxon, singapore, etc) maths. If you are trying to dispute the lack of parental involvement in the investigative math situation, you're going to have a hard time persuading me. It was a very public, vocal uprising against the school district and was well documented in the newspapers. It should be a lesson in and of itself that it took a serious desertion trend of students, many which fled to homeschooling, charter schools and private schools during this time because of the school district resistance, before a change was made. Every meeting, every forum I ever attended regarding this matter was very well attended. And during that five years, even basic times tables were not taught! In the case of my children, they had learned saxon math in Granite, and were completely confused trying to switch to investigative math. In fact, my son tried to use saxon algorithims to solve even basic multiplication/division problems and was given N's on his assignments because they were "processed incorrectly." I told the teacher that if he had the correct answer doing it the way that was most comfortable to him, he should be getting credit for it. No way, no how.

If vouchers aren't the answer, what is the answer? And how many students must be dumbed down in absence of better solutions from the public school system before something is done. What is your solution?

(I apologize if I come off terse, I'm supposed to be in Syracuse this week and am angry at the situation that has delayed the visit, so I am unfortunately taking it out on the poor, unsuspecting people on the MDB, lol)

[_Trinity]

I don't doubt your concerns with the school system, but as you note, you were able to attain a change to the system with lobbying public officials over your math issue.

1. Is it right for your non-member Alpine neighbor to pay taxes so that a voucher may be used in a school with LDS-only values?

Please see my response to Who Knows about the reality of lobbying public officials over the math issue because that is exactly what we had to do. And yes, the vouchers could be used for an LDS valued school. Just like the voucher could be used at Juan Diego, which is a catholic school. Or any other private school. If I felt my son would learn better in Heritage, I would put him there.

2. Do you think that a Hispanic child of illegal alien parents in West Salt Lake will have an improved chance to attend a "Renaissance Academy" once vouchers pass, or do Alpine parents care about that social issue? Do you think that after vouchers, there will be better teachers and counselors within walking distance of that Hispanic child, or worse?

The charter schools have a lottery admission system. A hispanic child would have just a chance of getting in as my cute little caucasian child. Incidentally, there is a higher number of minority students at Renaissance than at Lone Peak High school. And unlike the noncharter public schools, Renaissance has a more rigorous language requirement. From their website:

From kindergarten through 5th grade, all students will be required to learn Spanish with a highly qualified instructor two to three times per week and practice on a daily basis in the classroom or language lab. Also from Kindergarten through 5th grade, all students will be encouraged to learn American Sign Language on an exposure level as it is integrated with their core subjects. Regular classroom teachers, teacher aides and volunteer parents who are proficient in Spanish or ASL, and willing to attend further trainings, will be essential to this program's success.

Beginning in 6th grade, Renaissance students will continue their acquisition of foreign language as a mandatory component of the International Baccalaureate Middle Years Programme. They will have the choice of continuing in Spanish, or beginning courses in Mandarin Chinese or Arabic. Additionally, Latin phraseology will be incorporated into the science and social studies curriculum.

I don't doubt that your LDS-only schools in Alpine with greatly benefit by a voucher system, and that the already excellent Alpine School District will get even better. It is really a crying shame, however. Utahns are so danged provincial.

And this is why I brought up my past experience with Granite school district. Alpine is Alpine, and will score higher on national/state testing simply because of the demographic. I wish I would have had a voucher for my children in the Granite school district so I would have been able to move them to a smaller, safer learning environment.

[_ubermarie]

I empathize with Trinity. I just think that dealing with any educational system must be frustrating. There is no such thing as a perfect fit. But, I am voting against Referendum 1 because of my own personal history. As a survivor ( I kid! sorta) of American Heritage, I have to say, that school was seriously bizarre. Sure, the math/English skills were excellent, but I was also taught from Beka books-- weird Christian books that incorporated pictographs of Noah's ark when debunking evolution. I was also taught an odd mixture of pseudo-history of America from a John Birch perspective. These schools are barely regulated because that is what they want. A school that incorporates a daily reading of the Book of Mormon and the requirement of lunchtime prayers, should not be funded by public tax dollars. I'm just sayin'.

[_rcrocket]

If vouchers aren't the answer, what is the answer? And how many students must be dumbed down in absence of better solutions from the public school system before something is done. What is your solution?

Absolutely strict separation of church and state. No government monies should ever go to pay for a parochial schooling.

Public education is, by definition, socialized for the purposes of equality. Human beings are presumed to be equal. Your rich little white kids in Alpine are as worthy of a public education as your poor polygs in Hilldale, your children of illegals in west Salt Lake.

Use standardized test scores to determine which schools are having trouble and offer the best pay for teachers to go there. Incentivize the teachers who go there with pay based upon improvments in standardized scores.

It is the rich folks who decry the dumbing down of public education. Let them send their kids, exactly as you have done, to private schools if they don't want their children to affiliate with the riff-raff. But, please don't use the tax dollars of the 7-11 clerk at 3rd South and 11th West to do so.

rcrocket

[_ubermarie]

Absolutely strict separation of church and state. No government monies should ever go to pay for a parochial schooling.

Amen, rcrocket!

[_Who Knows]

Incentivize the teachers who go there with pay based upon improvments in standardized scores.

I think this would be huge. We pay teachers a salary that's barely above the poverty line, and then expect them to work miracles.

Treat it like any other business. If you want to attract top performers, you've got to give them the big bucks.

[_harmony]

If vouchers aren't the answer, what is the answer? And how many students must be dumbed down in absence of better solutions from the public school system before something is done. What is your solution?

Absolutely strict separation of church and state. No government monies should ever go to pay for a parochial schooling.

Public education is, by definition, socialized for the purposes of equality. Human beings are presumed to be equal. Your rich little white kids in Alpine are as worthy of a public education as your poor polygs in Hilldale, your children of illegals in west Salt Lake.

Use standardized test scores to determine which schools are having trouble and offer the best pay for teachers to go there. Incentivize the teachers who go there with pay based upon improvments in standardized scores.

It is the rich folks who decry the dumbing down of public education. Let them send their kids, exactly as you have done, to private schools if they don't want their children to affiliate with the riff-raff. But, please don't use the tax dollars of the 7-11 clerk at 3rd South and 11th West to do so.

rcrocket

Well said, Crock. Goodness! Whodaever thought we'd agree on something!

[_rcrocket]

Incentivize the teachers who go there with pay based upon improvments in standardized scores.

I think this would be huge. We pay teachers a salary that's barely above the poverty line, and then expect them to work miracles.

Treat it like any other business. If you want to attract top performers, you've got to give them the big bucks.

Your comment is accurate in Utah, not in California. Teachers start around 40K in California and can make 70 to 80K, depending on incentives.

What makes Utah so unique is the supply of people willing to teach and take less. On a pupil-by-pupil basis Utah spends less than California does, but gets better results. Why? Because higher quality teachers are willing to work for less in Utah, and the teacher's union is weaker in Utah than in other states.

Why are there more and better qualified people willing to teach (on a per capita basis) than in California? I'm not certain about that, but I'd wager that there are more women getting teaching degrees from the major universities on a percentage basis when comparied to other degees than in other states, in particular, California. In California, but not in Utah, there are more women in law schools than men. Nurses' starting salaries are more than 100K with overtime. So, there is more upward pressure for teachers' salaries.

[_moksha]

It is the rich folks who decry the dumbing down of public education. Let them send their kids, exactly as you have done, to private schools if they don't want their children to affiliate with the riff-raff. But, please don't use the tax dollars of the 7-11 clerk at 3rd South and 11th West to do so.

rcrocket

Well spoken. I might add that the assumption that private schools themselves are the answer to a better education is unfortunately mistaken. Maybe it doesn't matter though because Biff and Muffy were not genius material to begin with - still this private voucher idea can help separate them from Hector and LaWanda. Better for Hector and LaWanda all around, unless Biff and Muffy's parents find someway to have the Governor and Republican legislature loot the public education coffers for them.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Somehow I don't think that rich folks from Alpine, who have one of the best white-bread public school systems in the United States (really, do you have any minorities?) really have much clue about the impact vouchers will have upon public education.

The reality is that the rich get better public school systems than the poor with vouchers. How so? The rich have more disposable income to use to supplement their vouchers. The poor have none. So, more money will be spent on education in places like Alpine than in places like West Salt Lake City. That means that the better teachers will go (they already go) to the Alpine School District. That seems fair, doesn't it? Keep those minority types in their place, right?

This country has become great because of the universality of public education. Although certainly not perfect, and no government system is perfect, it moves government money into the poorest areas of the community.

Another problem with the vouchers is that most private schools do not (or are not equipped to) accept children with special needs or that are currently learning disabled in some area. And of course a larger proportion of these students just happen to be lower on the socio-economic ladder.