Ray A.....total nut.

[_Jersey Girl]

Ray,

I've been reading along here as time and interest permits. That I am no fan of Scratch these days is publicly known and has been explicitly stated in my posts on this board. Having said that...

Firstly, what has Scratch's offline identity or the status of his church affiliation, got to do with whatever positions he takes on various issues on this board? I say it has no bearing whatseover. If you can tell me just how it is relevant, besides the fact that you wish to know, I'd like you to explain that.

Secondly, please tell me how your shifting the focus of various issues to Scratch himself is not an attempt to evade material that Scratch has presented on various occasions? An example, when I entered into strong disagreement with Scratch not long ago, I saw no reason whatsoever to discuss "Scratch". I, instead, remained on topic with counter arguments to the assertions that he made regarding myself. If you can't stay on topic and engage evidence without verbally bitch slapping your adversary, where is the strenght of your position?

Thirdly, in response to this, by you:

You don't know a fart. The critics of Mormonism don't know a fart. What they are now expressing, including what Kevin Graham is now expressing - is child's play.

I suppose that some folks around here would be surprised to know that I have encountered your online postings for perhaps 7 years. In all of those 7 years, I have never once seen you engage the work of critics. What I have seen, is criticism of the critics themselves as you so richly demonstrate in your words above.

I'd like to know why you think the many critics of Mormonism (who provide counter arguments and evidences that apply to a varitey of Mormon related issues) and who are in great portions, those having lived the Mormon walk for most of their entire lives...."don't know a fart".

"Because I say so" isn't a valid anwer.

Jersey Girl

[_Jersey Girl]

Regarding the posting of emails and other types of private communication, PM's and that sort of thing.

Ray, I fully disagree with the practice of publicly posting emails, PM's or even chat logs. It makes me lose confidence in the folks who do that online. I assume that you would agree with the idea that it's a cheap shot of some kind.

Having said that, while you criticize Scratch for posting email content between himself and DCP, I'd like to know how you would attempt to defend Juliann and others who made explicit demands for Kevin Graham to post emails between himself and (who the hell was it?) some academic he referred to on MAD/FAIR.

In your attempt to make Scratch the scoundrel who publicly discloses private communication (in this case) between himself and DCP who is held in high regard on MAD...you ignore the fact that Juliann herself demanded that Kevin G. do the same and in full public view.

I saw it, I read it, I followed it. What say you?

And just for the record or shall we say a pre-emptive strike, I'm not defending Scratch , Ray. I'm only opposing your raving lack of reasoning on this thread. Should you consider reducing my position here to that, I would advise against it.

[_Ray A]

Same ol', same ol'. No one knows anything except Ray and his friends. *yawn*

Let me help you out here, Ray. You wouldn't know what a complete joke to Mormons looks like, since the Mormons you know don't represent the Mormons as a group. You can't show anyone anything, because what you know is simply too ethnocentric to matter to the vast majority of the 12+ million Mormons on the planet. Get the idea, Ray? You're one guy. Big deal. When you finally grow a brain, the rest of us will know it. If and when it happens, we'll be sure to let the whole rest of the world know it too. Even the Mormons. Prepare for the announcement: RAY GREW A BRAIN! Until then, keep trying. Even the least among us benefits from your example.

What do you mean, "get the idea", that is precisely the idea I put forward in my post. I'm glad you understand.

[_Ray A]

I see that you are *still* not addressing my questions, Ray. What, are you afraid that you might be forced to admit that you have an anger problem? Hmmm... It is interesting to note your presumptuousness here, and also the fact that you are engaging in some pretty obvious flip-flopping yet again. Earlier, you were asking me (quite nicely, I might add!) what my status was vis-a-vis the Church. Now, on the other hand, you are making all sort of completely unsupportable assumptions, and boasting about all your "experience" to boot! How about that!

Boy, Ray---am I ever glad that I refrained from telling you anything! Whew!

I can only entertain presumptions until I know your real thoughts/ideas, and what motivates you. You only speak of others, never yourself. When I went on PostMo I had some rather incorrect notions about them. I think they are a real mixture of what I call "professional Church bashers" (mostly long-time exmos who have long recovered and are now only out to ridicule the Church), and some very sincere people who are genuinely new to this, and struggling. I went through that phase in 1985, and I appreciate how they feel, so I felt a lot of empathy for them. This is why I stopped criticising it so much. I would like to help them "in transition", but doing so is not possible in any atmosphere where there is constant belittlement of the Church. It's like trying to get over your ex-spouse (when feelings of strong attachment are still there) by going to someone who is only interested in ridiculing your ex-spouse.

I don't have time to reply to the others today as I have to go to work, but I've noted the replies and will get to them when I do have time.

[_Ray A]

Having said that, while you criticize Scratch for posting email content between himself and DCP, I'd like to know how you would attempt to defend Juliann and others who made explicit demands for Kevin Graham to post emails between himself and (who the hell was it?) some academic he referred to on MAD/FAIR.

I have to make a very brief reply to this. If you really want to know, I totally disagreed with that request of Kevin, and it shocked me. But why would I criticise them when there's already so much MADB and Juliann-bashing out in the open here? Should I lay one more blow to Juliann's head, when she's already on the ground and being bashed by the mob?

The more you bash them, the more I will defend them, even if I don't always agree with what they write.

[_Jersey Girl]

Having said that, while you criticize Scratch for posting email content between himself and DCP, I'd like to know how you would attempt to defend Juliann and others who made explicit demands for Kevin Graham to post emails between himself and (who the hell was it?) some academic he referred to on MAD/FAIR.

I have to make a very brief reply to this. If you really want to know, I totally disagreed with that request of Kevin, and it shocked me. But why would I criticise them when there's already so much MADB and Juliann-bashing out in the open here? Should I lay one more blow to Juliann's head, when she's already on the ground and being bashed by the mob?

The more you bash them, the more I will defend them, even if I don't always agree with what they write.

Oh bulls***, Ray. The people whom you perceive yourself as "defending" are presumably grown ass adults who are capable of defending themselves if need be. Do you view yourself as some sort of hero with conditions?

Defending in what way? You do realize that what you've posted here (and have posted on other similiar threads in the past) is nothing more than a rhetoric binge that has no meaning or impact on anything or anyone?

Lay a "blow" to whatever you wish, by all means.

[_harmony]

Should I lay one more blow to Juliann's head, when she's already on the ground and being bashed by the mob?

The more you bash them, the more I will defend them, even if I don't always agree with what they write.

This is simply hilarious. The only time I've ever seen Juliann on the ropes was when she lied about a nonexistent transcript. Other than that, she gives as good as she gets, and, at least in her case, she is more than capable of defending herself.

[_Jersey Girl]

Should I lay one more blow to Juliann's head, when she's already on the ground and being bashed by the mob?

The more you bash them, the more I will defend them, even if I don't always agree with what they write.

This is simply hilarious. The only time I've ever seen Juliann on the ropes was when she lied about a nonexistent transcript. Other than that, she gives as good as she gets, and, at least in her case, she is more than capable of defending herself.

Yes, apparently the weak and incompetant Juliann is in need of a savior. Someone please let me know when Ray gets down off his self constructed cross.

[_Ray A]

I suppose that some folks around here would be surprised to know that I have encountered your online postings for perhaps 7 years. In all of those 7 years, I have never once seen you engage the work of critics. What I have seen, is criticism of the critics themselves as you so richly demonstrate in your words above.

This is my post of the day. I'm too F***** from work to reply at any length. But boy, have I had some interesting experiences this week. I'll have to start a blog on this. People are just sooooo funny. I love human beings. God has to be a comedian to create something like us. I am still pissing myself with laughter at what I've seen this week, so far. Two more days of entertainment left! I wouldn't trade my job for a $million dollars.

To answer your comment, Jersey Girl. The reason I didn't, and don't, "engage" the critics, is because I worked out my own position a very long time ago. I mentioned this in my post, but maybe you had one wine glass too many, because you didn't read it carefully. I said, I am bored to tears with apologetics, or counter-apologetics. Remember? That's why I don't "engage" the critics. I don't even engage the "apologists". I really think this is all like debating how many angels can dance on a pinhead.

I hope to do a post on Universalism, and its implications for Mormonism, or any religion, on Sunday. That should make my views a lot clearer. I don't need endless dissertations on "Why Mormonism is a fraud", any more than I need a hole in the head. It bores me to tears. That's why I haven't engaged in the debates. They mean nothing to me. Absolutely nothing.

[_beastie]

I have to make a very brief reply to this. If you really want to know, I totally disagreed with that request of Kevin, and it shocked me. But why would I criticise them when there's already so much MADB and Juliann-bashing out in the open here? Should I lay one more blow to Juliann's head, when she's already on the ground and being bashed by the mob?

The more you bash them, the more I will defend them, even if I don't always agree with what they write.

Did it ever occur to you that you persistently portray as victims people who seem to detest 'victomoloyg'? Or do they only detest when others feel victimized?

You make them sound like cowed, quivering, innocents. You know good and well that is far from the case. Juliann, especially, gives every bit as good as she gets, as far as sneering attacks, at least.