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Political Leanings & Shift

 
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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Zoidberg---don't you know that Coggins doesn't bother with sources? No; he instead prefers bombast, and when challenged to produce real evidence, he goes slinking off to lick his wounds. Just witness the utterly embarrassing drubbing he took from Dartagnan on the Book of Abraham debate. Coggins had to go running to MAD in order to try and round up sources, and it turns out that he is such an obnoxious blowhard that not even his fellow Mopologists would help him! In fact, the mods shut down his thread! LOL!!!



You don't care about sources Scratch, because you aren't well read enough or educated deeply or broadly enough to know where to go to get what you need. I can drop the names of many of the most prominent intellectuals, scholars, and social commentators in American history and you'll stand there slack jawed. I've done it. Calling for sources for you is nothing but a debate point scoring tactic, and nothing more.

Now, go back into the bathroom with your new copy of Dialog, lock the door, and pick up where you left off...

Oh, and about those degrees you have in, what was it? The history of political ideologies?
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Coggins7 wrote:
Coggins, although you have just admitted to not realizing before that Marxists-Leninists viewed socialism as a phase that will allow transition to communism, you continue to assure me I know nothing about the subject. Good luck.


Oh man....

I never admitted any such thing. Nice try at making a point without any intellectual effort on your part. I've known this for, oh, 25 years or so, ever since I began studying the Left.



Coggins, I read each of your posts and actually enjoy them immensely! Too much possibly?

You wrote and quoted this on the prior page:

You should probably start reading my posts if you're going to respond to them. I never said they were synonymous. I even mentioned (which apparently you glossed over, as you glossed over Riesman's lecture) the Dictatorship of the Proletariat as the theoretical half way point between the development of socialist institutions and pure Communism. There are, of course different schools of Socialism, but all of them contain similar elements and oppose liberal democracy for similar, if idiosyncratic reasons.

The short answer, famously given several generations ago, is that Socialism is Communism without a gun. Even more to the point, however, are the words of another Joe Blow who just happened to be living in Russia at the time. As Lenin said, "The goal socialism is communism."

Here's a definition I'll excerpt, my own italics, from Leo Huberman and Paul Sweezy of Monthy Review http://www.marxmail.org/faq/socialism_and_communism.htm:

Quote:
Socialism and communism are alike in that both are systems of production for use based on public ownership of the means of production and centralized planning. Socialism grows directly out of capitalism; it is the first form of the new society. Communism is a further development or "higher stage" of socialism.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his deeds (socialism). From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs (communism).


It must not be assumed, from the distinction between socialism and communism, that the political parties all over the world which call themselves Socialist advocate socialism, while those which call themselves Communist advocate communism. That is not the case. Since the immediate successor to capitalism can only be socialism, the Communist parties,-like the Socialist parties, have as their goal the establishment of socialism.


You're confusing me Coggins.

You also mentioned Lenin and his speaking to a classless society in socialism. This was his view of socialism and is not indicative of pure communism as he was well aware.

Lenin actually read Marx and actually screwed with the ideology a bit. Yet Lenin understood that there was a transition from capitalism to communism and he was quite aware that socialism was the midpoint. Let's see his own words:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/w ... h05.htm#s2

Furthermore, during the transition from capitalism to communism suppression is still necessary, but it is now the suppression of the exploiting minority by the exploited majority. A special apparatus, a special machine for suppression, the “state”, is still necessary, but this is now a transitional state. It is no longer a state in the proper sense of the word; for the suppression of the minority of exploiters by the majority of the wage slaves of yesterday is comparatively so easy, simple and natural a task that it will entail far less bloodshed than the suppression of the risings of slaves, serfs or wage-laborers, and it will cost mankind far less. And it is compatible with the extension of democracy to such an overwhelming majority of the population that the need for a special machine of suppression will begin to disappear. Naturally, the exploiters are unable to suppress the people without a highly complex machine for performing this task, but the people can suppress the exploiters even with a very simple “machine”, almost without a “machine”, without a special apparatus, by the simple organization of the armed people (such as the Soviets of Workers' and Soldiers' Deputies, we would remark, running ahead).

Lastly, only communism makes the state absolutely unnecessary, for there is nobody to be suppressed--“nobody” in the sense of a class, of a systematic struggle against a definite section of the population. We are not utopians, and do not in the least deny the possibility and inevitability of excesses on the part of individual persons, or the need to stop such excesses. In the first place, however, no special machine, no special apparatus of suppression, is needed for this: this will be done by the armed people themselves, as simply and as readily as any crowd of civilized people, even in modern society, interferes to put a stop to a scuffle or to prevent a woman from being assaulted. And, secondly, we know that the fundamental social cause of excesses, which consist in the violation of the rules of social intercourse, is the exploitation of the people, their want and their poverty. With the removal of this chief cause, excesses will inevitably begin to "wither away". We do not know how quickly and in what succession, but we do know they will wither away. With their withering away the state will also wither away.



Coggins wrote:


Now, I thought socialism was a mid-way point between capitalism and the classless society?


Yes it is.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Here, according to The Black Book of Communism, is the running score so far.



USSR: 20 million
China: 65 million
Vietnam: l million
North Korea: 2 million
Cambodia: 2 million
Eastern Europe: l million
Latin America: 150,000
Africa: l.5 million
Afghanistan: l.5 million

What political and social system destroyed all of these lives, Socialism or Communism?
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Another excellent analysis that cuts to the chase...

Post by _Coggins7 »


Leftist Racism


By John J. Ray
FrontPageMagazine.com | 10/8/2002


Introduction

In various articles that I have written from time to time, I have alluded to the fact that there are plenty of racially discriminatory attitudes and behaviour on the political Left and that Leftist racism is at least as vicious as any other form of racism. Leftists of course constantly condemn the slightest suspicion of racism in others in an apparent claim that they are holier than others in that respect. In this article, therefore, I draw together much of what I have said before in different sources and added a lot of new material in the hope of giving a single more comprehensive treatment of Leftist racism.

Nazism was Leftist

Probably the ultimate racist creed was Nazism. And one of the great confidence tricks of the 20th Century is the way in which 20th century intellectuals managed to get Nazism labelled as "Rightist". This is however utter nonsense. Take this description of a political programme: A "declaration of war against the order of things which exist, against the state of things which exist, in a word, against the structure of the world which presently exists". You could hardly get a more change-oriented or revolutionary programme than that. So whose programme was it? Marx? Lenin? Stalin? Trotsky? Mao? No. It was how Hitler described his programme towards the end of "Mein Kampf". And the Left pretend that Hitler was some sort of conservative!

And who was it who described his movement as having a 'revolutionary creative will' which had 'no fixed aim, … no permanency, only eternal change'. It could very easily have been Trotsky or Mao but it was in fact Hitler (O'Sullivan, 1983. p. 138). Clearly, Nazism was nothing more nor less than a racist form of Leftism (rather extreme Leftism at that) and to label it as "Rightist" or anything else is to deny reality.

To reinforce the point that Nazism was in fact Leftist, we might also note: Hitler always campaigned as a socialist and champion of the worker and the full name of Hitler's political party — generally abbreviated as "Nazi" — says it all: Die Nazionalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei ("The National Socialist German Worker's Party"). So, as a good socialist does, Hitler justified everything he did in the name of "the people" (Das Volk). The Nazi State was, like the Soviet State, all-powerful, and the Nazi party, in good socialist fashion, supervised German industry minutely. And of course Hitler and Stalin were initially allies. It was only the Nazi-Soviet pact that enabled Hitler's conquest of Western Europe. The fuel in the tanks of Hitler's Panzers as they stormed through France was Soviet fuel.

And a book that was very fashionable worldwide in the '60s was the 1958 book "The Affluent Society" by influential "liberal" Canadian economist J.K. Galbraith — in which he fulminated about what he saw as our "Private affluence and public squalor". But Hitler preceded him. Hitler shared with the German Left of his day the slogan: Gemeinnutz vor Eigennutz (Common use before private use).

It is also a matter of historical record that, after the Nazi-Soviet pact, Communists worldwide immediately became vigorously pro-Hitler. So Leftist "principles" are obviously very flexible. It is reasonable to conclude therefore, that, if Hitler had won and Stalin lost the war, Leftists would now be justifying their constant clamour for change and their bids for power as furthering Nazi ideals rather than "humanitarian" ideals.

And we all know how evil Nazi eugenics were, don't we? How crazy were their efforts to build up the "master race" through selective breeding of SS men with the best of German women — the Lebensborn project? Good Leftists recoil in horror from all that of course. But who were the great supporters of eugenics in Hitler's day? In the USA, the great eugenicists of the first half of the 20th century were the "Progressives". And who were the Progressives? Here is one summary of them:

Originally, progressive reformers sought to regulate irresponsible corporate monopoly, safeguarding consumers and labor from the excesses of the profit motive. Furthermore, they desired to correct the evils and inequities created by rapid and uncontrolled urbanization. Progressivism ... asserted that the social order could and must be improved... Some historians, like Richard Hofstadter and George Mowry, have argued that the progressive movement attempted to return America to an older, more simple, agrarian lifestyle. For a few progressives, this certainly was true. But for most, a humanitarian doctrine of social progress motivated the reforming spirit.

Sound familiar? The Red/Green alliance of today is obviously not new. So Hitler's eugenics were yet another part of Hitler's LEFTISM! He got his eugenic theories from the Leftists of his day. He was simply being a good Leftist intellectual in subscribing to such theories.

The summary of Progressivism above is from De Corte (1978). Against all his own evidence, De Corte also claims that the Progressives were "conservative." More Leftist whitewash! See also Pickens (1968).

And are feminists conservative? Hardly. And feminists are hardly a new phenomenon either. In the person of Margaret Sanger and others, they were very active in the USA in first half of the 20th century, advocating (for instance) abortion. And Margaret Sanger was warmly praised by Hitler for her energetic championship of eugenics. And the American eugenicists were very racist. They shared Hitler's view that Jews were genetically inferior and opposed moves to allow into the USA Jews fleeing from Hitler (Richmond, 1998). So if Hitler's eugenics and racial theories were loathsome, it should be acknowledged that his vigorous supporters in the matter at that time were Leftists and feminists, rather than conservatives.

But surely Hitler was at least like US conservatives in being a "gun nut"? Far from it. Weimar (pre-Hitler) Germany did have restrictions on private ownership of firearms but the Nazis introduced even further restrictions when they came to power. The Nazi Weapons Law (or Waffengesetz), which restricted the possession of militarily useful weapons and forbade trade in weapons without a government-issued license, was passed by the Reichstag on March 18, 1938.

Hitler was in fact even more clearly a Leftist than he was a nationalist or a racist. Although in his speeches he undoubtedly appealed to the nationalism of the German people, Locke (2001) makes a strong case that Hitler was not in fact a very good nationalist in that he always emphasized that his primary loyalty was to what he called the Aryan race — and Germany was only one part of that race. Locke then goes on to point out that Hitler was not even a very consistent racist in that the Dutch, the Danes etc. were clearly Aryan even by Hitler's own eccentric definition yet he attacked them whilst at the same time allying himself with the very non-Aryan Japanese. And the Russians and the Poles (whom Hitler also attacked) are rather more frequently blonde and blue-eyed (Hitler's ideal) than the Germans themselves are! So what DID Hitler believe in? Locke suggests that Hitler's actions are best explained by saying that he simply had a love of war but offers no explanation of WHY Hitler would love war. Hitler's extreme Leftism does explain this however. As the quotations already given show, Hitler shared with other Leftists a love of constant change and excitement — and what could offer more of that than war?

The idea that Nazism was motivated primarily by a typically Leftist hunger for change and excitement and rejection of the status quo is reinforced by the now famous account of life in Nazi Germany given by a young "Aryan" who lived through it. Originally written before World War II, Haffner's (2002) account of why Hitler rose to power stresses the boring nature of ordinary German life and observes that the appeal of the Nazis lay in their offering of relief from that: "The great danger of life in Germany has always been emptiness and boredom ... The menace of monotony hangs, as it has always hung, over the great plains of northern and eastern Germany, with their colorless towns and their all too industrious, efficient, and conscientious business and organizations. With it comes a horror vacui and the yearning for 'salvation': through alcohol, through superstition, or, best of all, through a vast, overpowering, cheap mass intoxication." So he too saw the primary appeal of Nazism as its offering of change, novelty and excitement.

And how about another direct quote from Hitler himself?

We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.

(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by John Toland, Adolf Hitler, 1977, p. 306)

Clearly, the idea that Hitler was a Rightist is probably the most successful BIG LIE of the 20th Century. He was to the Right of the Communists but that is all.

Leftist denial about Nazism

The way contemporary "Western" Leftists constantly hurl the labels "Nazi" and "Fascist" at anybody they disagree with suggests almost an obsession with Nazism. Such an obsession is also suggested by the way TV programs about Hitler and Nazism always seem to be available from our Left-dominated media. Programs about Stalin's Russia are as rare as hen's teeth by comparison.

This continuing Leftist obsession with Nazism might make some sense if Nazism were uniquely evil but, horrible and massive though the Nazi crimes were, they were anything but unique. For a start, government by tyranny is, if anything, normal in human history. And both anti-Semitism and eugenic theories were normal in prewar Europe. Further back in history, even Martin Luther wrote a most vicious and well-known attack on the Jews. And Nazi theories of German racial superiority differed from then-customary British beliefs in British racial superiority mainly in that the British views were implemented with typical conservative moderation whereas the Nazi views were implemented with typical Leftist fanaticism and brutality (cf. Stalin and Pol Pot). And the Nazi and Russian pogroms differed mainly in typically greater German thoroughness and efficiency. And waging vicious wars and slaughtering people "en masse" because of their supposed group identity have been regrettably common phenomena both before and after Hitler (e.g. Stalin's massacres of Kulaks and Ukrainians, the unspeakable Pol Pot's massacres of all educated Cambodians, Peru's "Shining Path", the Nepalese Marxists, the Tamil Tigers and the universal Communist mass executions of "class-enemies"). Both Stalin and Mao Tse Tung are usually "credited" with murdering far more "class enemies" than Hitler executed Jews.

It seems an obvious conclusion, then, that the constant Leftist excoriation of Hitler and the Nazis stems not from the unique horribleness of Nazism but has as its main aim an effort at camouflage — an effort to disguise or hide from public awareness the real kinship that exists between Nazism and other forms of Leftism. Modern-day Leftists do not want people to know that Nazism is their ugly twin. They just cannot afford to have people realize that ALL the great mass-murders of the 20th century were the product of Leftism.

Modern day Leftists of course hate it when you point out to them that Hitler was one of them. They deny it furiously — even though in Hitler's own day the orthodox Leftists who represented the German labor unions (the SPD) often voted WITH the Nazis in the Reichstag (German Parliament).

As part of that denial, an essay by Steve Kangas is much reproduced on the internet. Entering the search phrase "Hitler was a Leftist" will bring up multiple copies of it. Kangas however reveals where he is coming from in his very first sentence: "Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named "National Socialist." But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production". It does? Only to Marxists. So Kangas is saying only that Hitler was less Leftist than the Communists — and that would not be hard. Surely a "democratic" Leftist should see that as faintly to Hitler's credit, in fact.

Some other points made by Kangas are highly misleading. He says for instance that Hitler favoured "competition over co-operation". Hitler in fact rejected Marxist notions of class struggle and had as his great slogan: "Ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Fuehrer" (One State, one people, one leader). He ultimately wanted Germans to be a single, unified, co-operating whole under him, with all notions of social class or other divisions forgotten. Other claims made by Kangas are simply laughable: He says that Hitler cannot have been a Leftist because he favoured: "politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy". Phew! So Stalin was not political, not a militarist and not a dictator? Enough said.

What I have said so far about the Leftist character of Nazism is in fact only a small part of the evidence. A more detailed historical account can be found in my paper about Hitler on my main website.

Modern-day anti-racism

So people like Adolf Hitler and Pim Fortuyn (the homosexual Dutch political leader assassinated by a Green activist in May, 2002) are Rightist only by arbitrary definition. What they advocated was generally Leftist. So Left-wing racism does not exist only insofar as it is DEFINED out of existence.

As many people have pointed out, the late Pim Fortuyn advocated gay marriage, gender equality, liberalized drug laws and criticized a religion which he saw as intolerant and homophobic — which sounds an awful lot like the Leftists of his era — but because he also wanted to stop further immigration into his already densely populated country he became, "Hey presto!", a "Right-wing extremist"! Brunton also points out that there is much in the rhetoric of prominent French anti-immigrant politician Jean-Marie Le Pen which would get him described as a Leftist were it not for his racial views. Any Leftist who does allow that race might have some significance in some way is immediately relabelled as Rightist. Being racist is enough in the current Left lexicon to make you Rightist regardless of anything else you might believe or advocate.

So virulent racism CAN exist on the Left. Most Leftists are just dishonest about acknowledging it, that is all. They think that by relabelling it they perform some sort of magic trick that makes it go away.

Nonetheless, in pursuit of their usual "All men are equal" shibboleth, one of the proudest banners of modern-day Leftism is anti-racism. Leftists will grudgingly allow that one can be both a Leftist and a Nationalist — Gough Whitlam, the great hero of the Australian Left, certainly was an unashamed nationalist, as were those great champions of the Argentinian "descamisados", Juan and Eva Peron, and as is the Communist Kim dynasty in North Korea with their catastrophic doctrine of "juche" (national self-reliance) — but to allow any significance for race means automatically these days that you cannot be a Leftist.

It might be noted, moreover, that Leftists seldom seem to live among the minorities that they ostensibly champion. They are "limousine liberals" in Spiro Agnew's memorable phrase. What most Americans really think of at least some minorities is shown graphically by the phenomenon of "white flight" (US whites normally abandon suburbs that acquire more than a 5% Negro population) but we do not seem to see Leftists rushing to fill the houses left vacant by that. If deeds speak louder than words, this would tend to point to the Leftist's anti-racist advocacy as being mere empty rhetoric.

Leftist racism in history

There is much more in history that shows anti-racism to be a cloak that Leftists have only recently donned. To give just a tiny sample of what could be mentioned:

Before World War II, anti-racism was certainly NOT the mainstay of Leftist doctrine that it is today. Who was it who said: "What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money."? No. It was not Adolf Hitler but Karl Marx himself (Marx, 1844). See Blanchard (1984) for a full discussion of Marx's anti-Semitism.

And who was it who wrote this? "Not until my fourteenth or fifteenth year did I begin to come across the word 'Jew,' with any frequency, partly in connection with political discussions.... For the Jew was still characterized for me by nothing but his religion, and therefore, on grounds of human tolerance, I maintained my rejection of religious attacks in this case as in others. Consequently, the tone, particularly that of the Viennese anti-Semitic press, seemed to me unworthy of the cultural tradition of a great nation". Some kindly liberal wrote that, no doubt? Some anti-racist? Some Leftist? The sentiments are certainly ones that anti-racists could only applaud, are they not? But those words are actually the words of Adolf Hitler, writing in "Mein Kampf". And we all know what he ended up doing! And from 1901 to 1966 the Australian government had an official policy known as the "White Australia" policy — a policy which forbad non-white immigration into Australia. In other words, for most of the time that "slegs blankies" ruled as the guiding policy in South Africa, its English equivalent ("whites only") ruled in Australia too. And who were always the most ardent supporters of that policy? The Australian Labor Party — Australia's major Leftist party. It was an Australian Labor Party leader (Arthur Calwell) who became famous for his remark that, "Two Wongs don't make a white". The policy was eventually abolished by a conservative government under Harold Holt. So Leftists can be as racist as anyone else if it suits them.

This is also shown by the way Jews were heavily oppressed up until quite recently in Russia under the Soviet system. The Soviet Gulag may not have been as regularly fatal as Hitler's concentration camps but that is about the best that one can say of it.

Only a few fragments of the history of Leftist racism have been given here but in any case a typical Leftist response to what has been shown would be: "So what? History is history. It has no relevance to Leftism today." There are many possible answers to that but any claim that modern-day Leftism is somehow different, that it is not and cannot be racist is of course being given the lie right now with the upsurge of Leftist anti-Semitism as a response to the Arab-Israeli conflict.

And some Leftists who are active and prominent in Left-wing politics right now also have a history of anti-black racism. Senator Robert Byrd, for instance, is such a favourite among US Democrats that he even serves as Chairman of the US Senate --- yet in his 20s he was an active and vocal member of the Ku Klux Klan! You can hardly get more racist than that. So Leftist racism is no mere historical curiosity. Even prominent modern-day Leftists are perfectly capable of it.

Affirmative action

There are exceptions to every rule, however, and there is one form of racism that modern-day "Western" Leftists DO enthusiastically allow themselves. A great Leftist cause for the last 30 or more years has been "affirmative action" — which normally translates into deliberate discrimination against whites both in hiring practices and in admissions to universities and colleges — a policy which is as blatantly racist as any policy could be.

The policy is normally justified as needed in order to restore "balance" or "diversity" and so to reverse the discrimination of the past but if that were the motive such a policy would also be used to restore political balance in the social science and humanities schools of our universities and colleges — given the huge preponderance of Leftists teaching in such schools and the virtual barring of Rightists there (Kramer, 1999; Horowitz, 1999; Redding, 2001; Sommer, 2002). Needless to say, no affirmative action policy leading to the preferential hiring of conservatives exists in any major "Western" university. Voltaire's famous declaration that: "I disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it" obviously has no place in modern Leftist thinking. Clearly, then, affirmative action is a simple claim of righteousness and moral superiority for Leftists, nothing more. A Leftist will happily be racist if it enables him to make THAT claim!

A good reply to the Leftist arguments for "affirmative action" might be some very famous words: "I have a dream that my children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today". To their shame it is the Leftists today who favour people on the basis of the colour of their skin rather than on the content of their character. The chief obstacles to the realization of Martin Luther King's dream today are America's so-called "liberals".

And why is the gross discrimination in favour of blacks that is euphemistically called "affirmative action" seen as necessary? Surely if Leftists saw blacks as genetically equal, all that would be needed would be to ensure that blacks had equal opportunity (equal access to education etc.) to ensure equality of outcomes. Instead, however, Leftists see it as necessary to enforce equal outcomes by the weight of the law. Their deeds reveal that Leftists obviously do NOT really believe that blacks are inherently equal to whites.

This Leftist racism would also seem to show in the current Leftist doctrine that preferential admission of blacks to universities and colleges is needed to ensure "diversity" on US campuses. No testing of the "diversity" of thinking in the relevant candidates for admission is done. Just their blackness seems to suffice as evidence that they will add "diversity". Their backgrounds could be thoroughly middle class but there is still that unshakable confidence that they will add "diversity". This implies that blacks think differently from whites just because they are black. That may well be true but acting on such a principle seems to betray precisely that belief in inborn racial differences which Leftists normally condemn vehemently in others.

That racism lurks just beneath the surface in Leftists is also shown vividly by their constant adoption of double standards when speaking of populations of European and non-European origins. There is always an acceptance of barbarity among non-Europeans and a corresponding expectation that people of European origin "should know better". For instance, Leftists constantly cast up the undoubted evils of (European) Nazism so that there can hardly be anyone in the Western world who is unaware of those evils. But how often do Leftists excoriate the simultaneous and arguably greater Japanese atrocities against the Chinese? I have never heard a single Leftist do so. And Western countries are often criticized by Leftists for their "harsh" treatment of illegal immigrants (treatment which rarely leads to any deaths) but we hear hardly a word about the mini-holocausts that are occurring all the time in Africa. Certainly no Leftist that I have ever heard condemns such holocausts. If they do it is nothing compared to the attacks that they mount on the much more benign countries of European origin. Clearly, Leftists have an underlying view of the difference between the "civilized" and "savage" races that is little different from the views of such heroes of past British Imperialism as Rudyard Kipling.

A more general point in this connection is made by Dalrymple (2002): "Socialist and anti-Semite alike seek an all-encompassing explanation of the imperfection of the world, and for the persistence of poverty and injustice: and each thinks he has found an answer. There are other connections between left-wing thought and anti-Semitism (usually believed to be a disease of the Right alone). The liberal intellectual who laments the predominance of dead white males in the college syllabus or the lack of minority representation in the judiciary uses fundamentally the same argument as the anti-Semite who objects to the prominence of Jews in the arts, sciences, professions, and in commerce. They both assume that something must be amiss — a conspiracy — if any human group is over- or under-represented in any human activity, achievement, or institution."

Anti-Americanism

Another perhaps amusing exception for the poor old Leftist is that one of the many hatreds he is allowed is ALMOST racist: He is allowed to be anti-American. It might be objected that anti-Americanism is not racist because Americans are not a race but the essential point surely is that prejudice and hatred is prejudice and hatred, however the target group is defined.

And the events of September 11, 2001 surely show that hatred of America (whether by Muslim fantasists, Japanese Bushido fantasists, Leftist fantasists or any other fantasists) can be as malign, mindless and dangerous as any other form of prejudice. And it must be noted that Muslim fundamentalists are very much like the Greens and the Left in their dislike of the modern capitalistic world and in their dream of turning us all back to some sort of an idealized primitive past. No wonder so many Leftists condone Muslim terrorism! And if the Muslim fundamentalists want to return us all to a feudal state, the various Communist regimes actually did. Stalin, Mao, Kim Il Sung etc were as much God-kings in their time as any Pharaoh of Egypt ever was.

Racism normal?

It might nonetheless be argued that, whatever their motivations, modern-day Leftists do some good by their vocal condemnation of "racism" — and that could well be so. Racism can undoubtedly be a great and ignorant evil. But is it ALWAYS a great and ignorant evil?

Edmund Burke (1790) has some claims to being the founding theoretician of conservatism and he claimed that loyalty to one's group, tribe, nation etc is a basic human instinct. And the famous military theorist, Von Clausewitz (1972) noted over 150 years ago: that "Even the most civilized of peoples, in short, can be fired with passionate hatred for each other" (p. 76). So what does modern social science tell us?

Let us look initially at the literature of academic psychology in particular: Brown (1986) surveyed the large body of extant psychological research on the question and concluded that group loyalty and group identification are rooted in "universal ineradicable psychological processes". In other words, group loyalty is not only normal but universal. And another psychologist particularly active in research into feelings of group identity concluded: "Not only is ingroup favouritism .... not related to outgroup dislike, it also does not seem causally dependant on denigration of the outgroup" (Turner, 1978, p. 249). See also Brewer & Collins (1981, p. 350) and Brown, Condor, Mathews, Wade & Williams (1986).

And this is moderate compared with what can be found elsewhere in the social science literature. For instance, Hechter (1986) claims that all racism is rational while the prominent French anthropologist Levi-Straus (1983) not only claims that ethnocentrism is universal and inescapable but also claims that it is desirable — on the grounds that it promotes cultural diversity. And the sociobiologists, of course (e.g. Mihalyi, 1984/5; Van den Berghe, 1981) regard ingroup favouritism as universal not only to man but to all social animals. Perhaps most extreme of all, Volkan (1985 & 1988) says that we all actually NEED group enemies and allies.

But few Leftists are interested in such findings and therefore often carry their condemnation of people's thinking about groups to a ridiculous and unfair degree. They tend to characterize as racist almost anyone who is honest about his or her perfectly normal feelings of group identity — however harmless and non-malevolent those feelings may be. In other words, present-day Leftists tend to find racists under every bed. They are so wedded to exorcising the demons in the world about them that an imaginary demon will do if a real one cannot be found.

They do so because it is in fact just a ploy for them — a ploy to obtain kudos. The reality that we all like our own group and our kind best (Park, 1950) is simply ignored by Leftists. A simple blanket condemnation of all manifestations of group awareness is the usual limit of their intellectual prowess. Leftists must need all of their talent for denying reality to avoid condemnation of the vast passions generated worldwide by international soccer matches!

So are Rightists and Leftists both equally racist?

It would seem to follow from the view of racism as being innate and universal that both Left-leaning and Right-leaning people in the general population would be equally likely to be characterized by racist attitudes. And survey research conducted among the general population in Australia, Britain and the USA does indeed show that the correlations between overall ideology and racist attitudes are negligible (Ray, 1984; Ray & Furnham, 1984; Ray & Lovejoy, 1986; Raden, 1989, Table 2). Leftists and Rightists are equally racist. Most research on the question has however been conducted among college students (e.g. Adorno et al, 1950; Duckitt, 1993) and, among students, those with racist views are highly likely to be conservative.

A paper by Sniderman, Brody & Kuklinski (1984) is therefore interesting and unusual in that it relied on U.S. general population sampling and separated people out in terms of educational level. These authors did indeed find some overall association between racist and conservative attitudes but found it only among well-educated respondents. Among those with only a basic education there was no association between ideology and racism to be found at all. Racists were equally likely to be of the Left or the Right. This is consistent with the view that any association between the two variable is produced in the educational system by teachers (both secondary and tertiary) who tend to be both liberal and anti-racist. People who acculturate best to the educational system will therefore show both liberal and anti-racist views and this will produce an overall association between the variables.

Further evidence that such a social context is crucial for any such an association to emerge is the fact that in Northern Irish samples (Mercer & Cairns, 1981) the association is found for Protestants only (not among Catholics). Conservatism, therefore, may be associated with negative racial attitudes under some particular circumstances and in some particular places but there is no reason to say that political orientation is related to racial attitudes in general. See also Weil (1985) and Gaertner (1973).

Weigel & Howes (1985) did report a strong relationship between conservative and racist ideology in a U.S. general population sample but their "conservatism" scale was more a Leftist caricature of what modern-day conservatives believe than anything else. Most of its items would be more accurately described as measuring "Jingoism" (exaggerated nationalism and contempt for foreigners) so the correlation found was largely artifactual ("built-in").

Vote and racism

Conservative or Leftist attitudes often do not translate well into the political party one votes for. Conservative Southern Democrats are of course well-known in the US. So let us look at vote directly and ask what attitudes characterize Right-voting and Left-voting people. And in US general population samples, the relationship between racial attitudes and vote has been known to be weak to non-existent (Williams & Wright, 1955).

Some more recent research reported by Eisenman & Sirgo (1993) is also of some interest here. They reported principally the responses of U.S. voters to a single survey question concerning the degree of help that the government should give to blacks. They found that more Democrats than Republicans thought that the government should help blacks more and it is this aspect of their findings that the authors themselves concentrate on. Another aspect of their findings that should be noted, however, is that although the most extreme anti-black response was endorsed by 43 Republican voters it was also endorsed by 49 Democrat voters! See Table 2 of Eisenman & Sirgo (1993). So is it Republicans or Democrats who are the racists? There seems to be no clear tendency either way. George Wallace Democrats are obviously still alive, well and easy to find.

Racist behavior and ideology

So far attitudes only have been mentioned: not behaviour. If attitudes may not translate well into vote, they may not translate well into behaviour either. Regrettably, studies that examine behaviour as distinct from attitudes are rare. So a finding of some interest was by Gough & Bradley (1993). These authors were unusual in that they used a properly constructed scale to measure rated racist behavior. They correlated it with a form of the California "F" scale (usually described as measuring authoritarianism but perhaps more informatively referred to as measuring a type of old-fashioned conservatism. See Ray, 1988 & 1990). They found a correlation between the attitude and behavior measures of essentially zero (.08). Leftists and Rightists were then equally likely to behave in racist ways.

Racism is then universal and, depite their claims, Leftists are as racist in their attitudes as anyone else.

Anti-racism and "Equality"

So WHY is a present-day Leftist not supposed to be racist? Because even a Leftist realizes that it is pretty vacant simply to be against the status quo. He has to have something a bit more substantial to say than that in order to get any attention at all. But his best attempt at finding something substantial to say is still pretty pathetic. What he says is: "All men are equal" and "The government should fix it". The proverbial Blind Frederick could see that all men are NOT equal and anybody who thinks that governments are good at doing things can only be pitied. Nonetheless, "Equality" is the Leftist's claimed ideal and government action is the way he proposes to bring it about.

So given his slender intellectual and rhetorical resources, the Leftist has to make up for their emptiness by advocating them both blindly and vigorously. And, if all men are equal, then all races must be equal too, mustn't they? Obviously so, one would think. So, if he allows any recognition of racial differences, the Leftist risks having to give up one of the two slender straws that he clutches at in order to give himself something to say.

But how do we explain the fact that it only in relatively recent times that anti-racism has become a mainstay of Leftist agitation? Again some history helps: The "Levelling" idea that has always characterized Leftists had a very long history before Marx espoused it. Such different people as the Christian fundamentalist "Levellers" in Oliver Cromwell's New Model Army and the slave-owning gentlemen who framed and espoused the American Declaration of Independence were attracted by the idea of equality. The latter therefore even incorporated into their Declaration an assertion that it was an obvious truth that "all men are created equal".

"ALL" men? So blacks and whites are equal too? No. Believers in equality have always had to be good at ignoring reality and the American declarers had little trouble in reconciling equality with slavery — with what most people might think was its diametric opposite! How did they and others after them do it ? They did it quite easily: Long before Hitler made it his central policy, the people of the world were for many thinkers divided up between "Menschen" (men) and "Untermenschen" (sub-men) and equality obviously did not apply to "Untermenschen". So when the Hitlerian catastrophe thoroughly discredited and made obnoxious the idea of classifying certain races as being sub-human and hence outside the magic circle of "equality", Leftists found it expedient to hop on to the anti-racist bandwagon — no doubt with some relief. It did make their advocacy a lot simpler.

Clearly, however, their anti-racism is nonetheless mere opportunism: History shows that they have no intrinsic committment to it. When racism was generally regarded as sound and reasonable they were for it. Now that Hitler has made the very word obnoxious, they are against it.

So are we doomed to more racist evil?

The message in this article so far must sound like a dismal one. If we are all racists, does that mean that mankind is doomed to suffer forever from hate crimes and mass outbreaks of racist evil?

To answer that we need to realize that racist attitudes and racist behaviour are NOT automatically connected. Quite aside from the evidence from psychological research which shows that (La Piere, 1934; Stephan, 1985) there is the evidence of history.

To start our look at that, who knows that the first national leader to declare war on Hitler (Neville Chamberlain) was himself an unapologetic antisemite? Does that not require a doubletake? It surely shows that there is a long and winding path between racist attitudes and behaviour. And there are therefore lots of points where people can be led OFF that path.

The British Empire is the best case in point. Britons of that era regarded it as blindingly obvious that they were a superior race especially blessed by God (sound familar?). Yet did they therefore perpetrate pogroms or holocausts against anybody? Far from it. As Christians, they actually saw their superiority as giving them a duty to care for the "lesser" races (Kipling's famous "white man's burden").

There can be no doubt that there were some ugly episodes under British imperialism. The tragic slaughter at Amritsar of men, women and children by General Dyer still makes me weep. And there was also the awful death from disease of Boer women and children in British concentration camps during the South African war. But let it be noted that General Dyer was cashiered over his actions. He did NOT act with British government approval. And the death of the Boer women and children was both unintentional and widely decried in Britain at the time. The whole South African war was in fact vigorously opposed at the time by such influential figures as Lloyd George (later to become Britain's Prime Minister during World War I).

So if we compare the Leftist racism of Hitler and the racism of the very conservative British, what is the obvious conclusion? The conclusion is that feelings of racial, national or group superiority are natural, normal and healthy and can as easily lead to benevolent outcomes as evil ones. It is only racists who harbour hate in their heart generally who are to be feared.

REFERENCES


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(1950). The authoritarian personality New York: Harper.
Blanchard, W.H. (1984) Karl Marx and the Jewish question. Political Psychology 5, 365- 374.
Brewer, M.B. & Collins, B.E. (1981) Scientific enquiry and the social sciences. San Fran.: Jossey Bass
Brown, R., Condor, S., Matthews, A., Wade G. & Williams, J. (1986) Explaining intergroup differentiation in an industrial organization. J. Occupational Psychology. 59, 273-286
Brown, R. (1986) Social psychology. (2nd. Ed.) N.Y.: Free Press
Burke, E. (1790) Reflections on the revolution in France. Any edition.
Clausewitz, C. von (1976) On war. Princeton, N.J.: University Press
Dalrymple, T. (2002) The British Left goes antisemitic. City Journal. Vol. 12 (3), 23rd, July. http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_7_23_02td.html
De Corte, T.L. (1978) Menace of Undesirables: The Eugenics Movement During the Progressive Era", University of Nevada, Las Vegas. http://www.geocities.com/MadisonAvenue/ ... genics.htm
Duckitt, J. (1993) Further validation of a subtle racism scale in South Africa. South African J. Psychology 23, 116-119.
Eisenman, R. & Sirgo, H.S. (1993) Racial attitudes and voting behavior in the 1988 national elections: Liberals versus conservatives. J. Psychonomic Society 31, 268-270
Gaertner, S.L. (1973) Helping behavior and racial discrimination among Liberals and Conservatives. J. Personality & Social Psychology 25, 335-341.
Gough, H. & Bradley, P. (1993) Personal attributes of people described by others as intolerant. In P.M. Sniderman, P.E. Tetlock & E.G. Carmines (Eds.) Prejudice, politics and the American dilemma (pp. 60-85) Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press.
Haffner, S. (2002) Defying Hitler: A memoir. N.Y.: Farrar, Straus & Giroux
Hechter, M. (1986) Rational choice theory and the study of race and ethnic relations. Ch. 12 in J. Rex & D. Mason (Eds.) Theories of race and ethnic relations. Cambridge: U.P.
Horowitz, D. (1999) Calibrating the culture wars. Salon. May 24th.
Kramer, H. (1999) The Twilight of the Intellectuals: Politics and Culture in the Era of the Cold War. N.Y.: Ivan R. Dee.
Levi-Straus, C. (1983) Le Regard Eloigne Paris: Plon.
Locke, R. (2001) Rethinking History: Were the Nazis Really Nationalists?
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Marx, K. (1844) On the Jewish question. In most editions of Marx's works.
Mercer, G.W. & Cairns, E. (1981) Conservatism and its relationship to general and specific ethnocentrism in Northern Ireland. British J. Social Psychology 20, 13-16.
Mihalyi, L.J. (1984/85) Ethnocentrism vs. nationalism: Origin and fundamental aspects of a major problem for the future. Humboldt J. Social Relations. 12(1), 95-113.
O'Sullivan, N. (1983) Fascism. London: Dent.
Park, R.E. (1950) Race and culture. Glencoe, Ill.: Free Press.
Pickens, D. (1968) Eugenics and the Progressives. Nashville: Vanderbilt University Press
Raden, D. (1989) Interrelationships between prejudice and other social attitudes in the General Social Survey. Sociological Focus 22, 53-67.
Ray, J.J. (1984). Half of all racists are Left-wing. Political Psychology, 5, 227-236.
Ray, J.J. & Furnham, A. (1984) Authoritarianism, conservatism and racism. Ethnic & Racial Studies 7, 406-412.
Ray, J.J. & Lovejoy, F.H. (1986). The generality of racial prejudice. Journal of Social Psychology, 126, 563-564.
Redding, R.E. (2001). Sociopolitical diversity in psychology: The case for pluralism. American Psychologist, 56, 205-215.
Richmond, M. (1998) Margaret Sanger's eugenics. Life advocate. January.
http://lifeadvocate.com/1_98/feature.htm
Sniderman, P.M., Brody, R.A. & Kuklinski, J.H. (1984) Policy reasoning and political values: The problem of racial equality. American J. Political Science 28, 75-94.
Sommers, C.H. (2002) For more balance on campuses. Christian Science Monitor. May 6th.
Stephan, W.G. (1985) Intergroup relations. In G. Lindzey & E. Aronson (eds.)
The handbook of social psychology. N.Y.: Random House
Turner, J.C. (1978) Social categorization and social discrimination in the minimal group paradigm. In: H. Tajfel (Ed.) Differentiation between social groups: Studies in the social psychology of intergroup relations. European Monographs in Social Psychology, No. 14. London: Academic.
Van den Berghe, P.L. (1981) The ethnic phenomenon. N.Y.: Elsevier
Volkan, V.D. (1985) The need to have enemies and allies: A developmental approach. Political Psychology 6, 219-247.
Volkan, V. (1988) The need to have enemies and allies: From clinical practice to international relationships. Dunmore, Pa.: Jason Aronson.
Weigel, R.H. & Howes, P.W. (1985). Conceptions of racial prejudice: Symbolic racism reconsidered. Journal of Social Issues, 41(3), 117-138.
Weil, F.D. (1985) The variable effects of education on liberal attitudes: A comparative-historical analysis of Anti-Semitism using public opinion survey data. American Sociological Review 50, 458-474.
Williams, R.J. & Wright, C.R. (1955) Opinion organization in a hetero-geneous adult population. J. Abnormal & Social Psychology 51, 559-564.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Nice article Coggins.

Let's start with whether or not private capitalists owned the means of production in Nazi Germany? They did own it.

Was wealth redistributed in Nazi Germany from the private capitalists to the workers? Or rather was wealth controlled and used by the state to further state goals without concern for equalizing and redistribution of wealth?

Was Nazi Germany concerned with meritocracy or equality?

Hitler may have called himself a socialist but he was not one. Labels don't make it so Coggins.

The right is frantically trying to rid itself of Fascism and it's just not working. Hitler was no socialist.
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Post by _Zoidberg »

Coggins7 wrote:
Coggins, although you have just admitted to not realizing before that Marxists-Leninists viewed socialism as a phase that will allow transition to communism, you continue to assure me I know nothing about the subject. Good luck.


Oh man....

I never admitted any such thing.


And what was that:

I'll have to revise, based upon the above, my understanding of these two as siblings to something more along the lines of a single entity growing from youth to adulthood


???

I
f you don't realize that, you have failed to produce any evidence that "the Soviets have used both terms interchangeably". Of course Lenin said the goal of socialism is communism, duh! But show me one place where he was using the terms interchangeably.


What was "Socialism in one country" Zoid? This conept was implemented by Stalin, but created by Bukarrin in 1925. Was the Soviet Union at any time in this period a Socialist or Communist country?


What is your point here, exactly, other than demonstrating you can't even spell Bukharin's name right?

Here's Lenin:

“As I just passed through your hall, I observed a placard with the inscription: ‘The realm of the workers and peasants will never end!’ After I had read this remarkable placard, which did not, it is true, hang on the wall in the usual manner but stood in a corner, perhaps because it occurred to someone that the inscription had not been happily chosen and he therefore put it on the side – when I had read this remarkable placard, I was forced to think: So, there still prevail among us misunderstandings and false conceptions about those most elementary and most fundamental things! If the realm of the workers and peasants were really never to end, this would mean that there would never be socialism, for socialism is the abolition of all classes; but so long as there are workers and peasants, then there are different classes, and complete socialism would be for that reason impossible. And when I reflected that, three and a half years after the October revolution, there can be among us such remarkable placards, even if pushed somewhat to the side, it occurred to me that it is possible for the greatest misunderstandings to prevail even about the most widely disseminated and widely used watchwords.” – Lenin, Speech at the All-Russian Conference of Transport Workers, Moscow, March 1921.

Now, I thought socialism was a mid-way point between capitalism and the classless society?


You are either feigning ignorance or you are really that stupid. What about the society being a stateless society? That's the main difference here.

Marx and Engels defined socialism in vol. 19 of their collective works as a society that "does not recognize any class differences because everyone is a worker, as well as everyone else". You can have classless socialism, but in order to have communism, you need to abolish the state.

by the way, Bukharin, whose name you butchered, said in his article "Towards Socialism": "Non-capitalist, half-socialist order of things is coming. Half-socialist because, first, this is still the epoch of dictatorship, and not classless socialism, and second, because at first unorganized relationships in the village will still be significant". Let me assure you he did not mean communism by "classless socialism". Since communism is classless by definition, why would he feel the need to emphasize socialism should be classless if he were using it synonymously with communism? Go do some reading.

Later the elimination of classes was somewhat revised/expanded on to mean a unified society that included co-ops, as well as state property. If you knew Russian, you could read a textbook on historical materialism. Not ever are communism and socialism used interchangeably there.

Were just about done Zoid, head games wont' cut it...


You are speaking in riddles again. Silly me for assuming you actually heard someone who has lived in the USSR use "socialism" and "communism" interchangeably. I should have made the logical conclusion that you pulled it out of your butt.

Stop your pious comparisons and start thinking. I'm not denying Lenin favored terror, but you are just unable to grasp the gist of the issue: he was trying to implement the dictatorship of the proletariat instead of a personality cult and opposed the idea that it's possible to have communism in one country. His goal with the October Revolution was to provoke an international revolution.

The United Order, whatever it was (or will be in its fully funtional form), it is not Socialism. Participation in it is completely voluntary, and two other major points must be observed: one is the overarching doctrine of free agency, and the other is whether or not Zion is intended to be a materially prosperous society with decent living standards.


Of course, socialism is intended to make everyone's living standards crappy.

Whatever the United Order will look like in its fully developed form, it cannot be socialist because socialism cannot produce wealth and it must reduce individual liberty to a minimum for its economic and social policies to even function in a realistic way.

Nothing we know about the United Order thus far indicates such a situation, and further, Nothing in Church teaching indicates a search for a "classless society". There will be "no rich and poor", but this needs to be stretched quite thin to claim a classless social order (and, in any case, a truly classless society, outside of a non-mortal society of angels or gods, would require the utter abolishment of personal political, social, and economic freedom, which, of course the United Order concept does not envision)


So how do you imagine those classes will look like? If the means of production are owned by either everyone simultaneously or by infallible God who distributes wealth according to the needs of every individual?
"reason and religion are friends and allies" - Mitt Romney
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Post by _Coggins7 »

barrelomonkeys wrote:Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Nice article Coggins.

Let's start with whether or not private capitalists owned the means of production in Nazi Germany? They did own it.

Was wealth redistributed in Nazi Germany from the private capitalists to the workers? Or rather was wealth controlled and used by the state to further state goals without concern for equalizing and redistribution of wealth?

Was Nazi Germany concerned with meritocracy or equality?

Hitler may have called himself a socialist but he was not one. Labels don't make it so Coggins.

The right is frantically trying to rid itself of Fascism and it's just not working. Hitler was no socialist.



Ahistorical Barrel. The "Right" you are speaking of is Classical Liberalism". Now, what possible connection dies John Lock, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, John Stuart Mill, David Hume, Adam Smith, William F. Buckley, Ludwig Von Mises, F.A. Heyek, Milton Friedman, Henry Hazlitt, Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and numerous other intellects of the last 200 years have to do with Fascism? Where is the connection?

Did you read the article by Riesman? The entire argment is laid out there in detail. Here's part of that again:

De facto government ownership of the means of production, as Mises termed it, was logically implied by such fundamental collectivist principles embraced by the Nazis as that the common good comes before the private good and the individual exists as a means to the ends of the State. If the individual is a means to the ends of the State, so too, of course, is his property. Just as he is owned by the State, his property is also owned by the State.

But what specifically established de facto socialism in Nazi Germany was the introduction of price and wage controls in 1936. These were imposed in response to the inflation of the money supply carried out by the regime from the time of its coming to power in early 1933. The Nazi regime inflated the money supply as the means of financing the vast increase in government spending required by its programs of public works, subsidies, and rearmament. The price and wage controls were imposed in response to the rise in prices that began to result from the inflation.

The effect of the combination of inflation and price and wage controls is shortages, that is, a situation in which the quantities of goods people attempt to buy exceed the quantities available for sale.

Shortages, in turn, result in economic chaos. It's not only that consumers who show up in stores early in the day are in a position to buy up all the stocks of goods and leave customers who arrive later, with nothing — a situation to which governments typically respond by imposing rationing. Shortages result in chaos throughout the economic system. They introduce randomness in the distribution of supplies between geographical areas, in the allocation of a factor of production among its different products, in the allocation of labor and capital among the different branches of the economic system.

In the face of the combination of price controls and shortages, the effect of a decrease in the supply of an item is not, as it would be in a free market, to raise its price and increase its profitability, thereby operating to stop the decrease in supply, or reverse it if it has gone too far. Price control prohibits the rise in price and thus the increase in profitability. At the same time, the shortages caused by price controls prevent increases in supply from reducing price and profitability. When there is a shortage, the effect of an increase in supply is merely a reduction in the severity of the shortage. Only when the shortage is totally eliminated does an increase in supply necessitate a decrease in price and bring about a decrease in profitability.

As a result, the combination of price controls and shortages makes possible random movements of supply without any effect on price and profitability. In this situation, the production of the most trivial and unimportant goods, even pet rocks, can be expanded at the expense of the production of the most urgently needed and important goods, such as life-saving medicines, with no effect on the price or profitability of either good. Price controls would prevent the production of the medicines from becoming more profitable as their supply decreased, while a shortage even of pet rocks prevented their production from becoming less profitable as their supply increased.

As Mises showed, to cope with such unintended effects of its price controls, the government must either abolish the price control or add further measures, namely, precisely the controls over what is produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it is distributed, which I referred to earlier. The combination of price controls with this further set of controls constitutes the de facto socialization of the economic system. For it means that the government then exercises all of the substantive powers of ownership.

This was the socialism instituted by the Nazis. And Mises calls it socialism on the German or Nazi pattern, in contrast to the more obvious socialism of the Soviets, which he calls socialism on the Russian or Bolshevik pattern.

Of course, socialism does not end the chaos caused by the destruction of the price system. It perpetuates it. And if it is introduced without the prior existence of price controls, its effect is to inaugurate that very chaos. This is because socialism is not actually a positive economic system. It is merely the negation of capitalism and its price system. As such, the essential nature of socialism is one and the same as the economic chaos resulting from the destruction of the price system by price and wage controls. (I want to point out that Bolshevik-style socialism's imposition of a system of production quotas, with incentives everywhere to exceed the quotas, is a sure formula for universal shortages, just as exist under all around price and wage controls.)

At most, socialism merely changes the direction of the chaos. The government's control over production may make possible a greater production of some goods of special importance to itself, but it does so only at the expense of wreaking havoc throughout the rest of the economic system. This is because the government has no way of knowing the effects on the rest of the economic system of its securing the production of the goods to which it attaches special importance.


Read National Review, The American Spectator, Human Events, Policy Review, or The Claremont Review of Books. Listen to Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingram, or Michael Reagan. Where, please, to you see Fascism on the Right?

I've been at pains, and bc made an attempt, to point out that Fascism is not a phenomena of the Right. Fascism, National Socialism, and Marxian Socialism are all philosophies emanating from many of the same philosophical antecedents and culminating in essentially the same kinds of societies. The one oddball in all this is "the Right"; conservatism or modern classical liberalism.

"The Right" is wholly and implacably hostile to all three precisely because of the similarities they share. Further, as has already been pointed out, all three systems share statism, totalitarianism, the collectivization of economic and social life, repression of political, economic, and civil liberties, and militarism. All of them involve the subjection of the individual to the state and to a grand, all embracing ideology.

All, except one. True liberalsism, today known as conservatism and, in another form, Libertarianism.

Here's how Lewellin Rockwell sums it up:

But what, in Heaven's name, does any of this have to do with "right-wing" theory? By "right wing," the media can mean one of these killer Nazi thugs, or they can mean someone who believes in private property, free enterprise, and bourgeois social norms. The blurring of the difference -- they are really polar opposites -- is wildly dishonest but obviously purposeful.

Of course, the media are free to define terms however they like, but the fact is that the ideological origins of Nazism are with the left. The term Nazi itself is short for the National Socialist German Workers Party. Nazism was fashioned as a totalitarian nationalist alternative to the totalitarian international socialism of the Lenin model. But national or international, the relevant word is socialist, which should be the first tip-off to Nazism's leftist origins.

It was no accident that the Nazi flag was a red banner; it was taken from the flag of socialism. As Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn showed in his book, "Leftism" (1974 and 1990), Hitler and all his top lieutenants were hard-core socialists who hated everything about the old Europe, including small states, the monarchs, the Church, the landed aristocracy, peace, and the free economy of the 19th century. They imagined themselves running a centralized, protectionist, and statist Germany under the executive-branch "leadership principle." They talked constantly of a proletarian revolution that would destroy the bourgeois class.

Furthermore, as Robert Proctor showed in "Racial Hygiene: Medicine Under the Nazis" (1988), the Nazis were health fanatics who banned cigarette smoking, promoted vegetarianism and organic gardening, engaged in abortion and euthanasia, frowned on all capitalist excess, and even promoted animal rights. They were environmentalists who locked up land from development to promote paganism.

The Nazi government introduced socialized medicine and government-mandated vacations at government spas, imposed handgun control, and expanded unemployment "insurance" and Social Security. The Nazis opposed the traditional calendar and wanted to replace it with one centered on race and nation rather than faith and family.

A new study of Nazi make-work programs of the 1930s by Dan P. Silverman ("Hitler's Economy," 1998) shows that Hitler's government pursued a program of "public investment" even more far reaching than the U.S. New Deal. This government imagined itself as the employer of every citizen, the planner of every production decision, and the redistributor of every accumulated pocket of wealth in society. From the Nazi point of view, full glory came during the war when they took over the economy completely, Soviet-style.

Whatever you want to call a violent movement that idealizes Hitler's socialist Third Reich, "right-wing" doesn't cut it. Consider also the politics of the Neo-Nazi novel that inspires many of these killers. It is called the Turner Diaries. The book got a lot of attention after the bombing of the Oklahoma federal building because it was a favorite of Timothy McVeigh's.

It has been said that the book advocates the killing of federal officials. In fact, that's just the initial hook. Conspirators wipe out all their enemies, which include anyone who opposes their rise to total power. After taking over, they restart the calendar at the year zero, a goal associated with every socialist thinker from Rousseau to Pol Pot.

Also in the book, businessmen are portrayed as a greedy class that puts money before race, and Christians are demonized as stupid and evil. In the U.S. of the future, all free enterprise and free trade are abolished. Instead, we get a central-planning regime that distributes all resources, including food, on an equal basis. The citizens are pliable subjects of the socialist elite who exercise total power. The book ends with nuclear bombs, the invention of the socialist FDR, destroying all of Africa, China, and South America.

The plot, however crude, isn't entirely unfamiliar. It is just a version of the nightmarish dream of every variety of socialism: millennialist imaginings of a new age of history, hatred of businessmen, opposition to established religion, a belief in central planning, a love of central power, and a world government that crushes all opposition to the revolution.

No matter what they call themselves, the people who have similar dreams of total social and economic control today are on the left, not the right. (That there exists a venerable non-socialist tradition on the left is another issue for another day.) The uncomfortable truth is this: the differences between the fevered imaginings of Furrow, and those advanced in the academic socialist literature, do not concern ideological substance, but its particular shading and application.


Unfortunately Barrel, the institutions of our society that create, interpret, and disseminate information have been governed, for the most part, for much of the 20th century, by people, in one way or another, sympathetic to one of these, or some version of one of these leftist ideologies, and have ridden shotgun, in a very real sense, for generations now, lapping up the Right/Left dichotomy cooked up by the Kremlin during the Popular Front era and passing it on as received wisdom throughout the West.

Unfortunately, its a lie, and that's the only way it can be described because that is the truth of the matter.

Don't get me wrong, there is a Right/Left split, but it is between true liberalism and Socialism, Fascism, and National Socialism as it appeared in the 30s.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


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Post by _Zoidberg »

Coggins, temporary alliances and pacts do not constitute similarities in ideology and neither does self-identification, as Book of Mormon has correctly pointed out.

I don't know who wrote the crappy article you cited, but if he thinks that communism seeks to substitute the state for private ownership, I wouldn't put much stock into anything else he has to say. He clearly has no idea what he is talking about, and neither no you. Go google "left" and "right".
"reason and religion are friends and allies" - Mitt Romney
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Coggins7 wrote:

Ahistorical Barrel. The "Right" you are speaking of is Classical Liberalism". Now, what possible connection dies John Lock, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, John Stuart Mill, David Hume, Adam Smith, William F. Buckley, Ludwig Von Mises, F.A. Heyek, Milton Friedman, Henry Hazlitt, Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and numerous other intellects of the last 200 years have to do with Fascism? Where is the connection?


I am well aware of what classical liberalism is Coggins. Fundamental core components of classical liberalism is property rights, the free market, civil liberties, and Jefferson's unalienable rights. Does there have to be a 'connection' with fascism? You want these ideologies to somehow be connected Coggins and it doesn't work that way on a political scale necessarily.

I've already posted where left vs. right stands on the political scale. Can you go back a page and look at that please? And respond to my earlier points? Instead of answering or looking to points I've already raised you bring in new evidence to support your position without even giving my points consideration. Why?


Did you read the article by Riesman?


I did read it and think that it tries to make a case for socialism that does not readily fit the scale. Sorry.
Read National Review, The American Spectator, Human Events, Policy Review, or The Claremont Review of Books. Listen to Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingram, or Michael Reagan. Where, please, to you see Fascism on the Right?


I am a current subscriber to The American Spectator, I often read the National Review when I visit my father and have a few piled up. I am familiar with Rush, Laura, and Michael.

You are trying to connect fascism to the right in American politics. I am telling you on an ideological scale that fascism is on the right. You're looking through a lens of American politics and it's not appropriate.

I've been at pains, and bc made an attempt, to point out that Fascism is not a phenomena of the Right. Fascism, National Socialism, and Marxian Socialism are all philosophies emanating from many of the same philosophical antecedents and culminating in essentially the same kinds of societies. The one oddball in all this is "the Right"; conservatism or modern classical liberalism.

"The Right" is wholly and implacably hostile to all three precisely because of the similarities they share. Further, as has already been pointed out, all three systems share statism, totalitarianism, the collectivization of economic and social life, repression of political, economic, and civil liberties, and militarism. All of them involve the suppression of the individual to the state and to ideology.


Agreed, that the 'right' in this country of course is opposed to all of the above. I'm not pro any of the radical left or right. Yet, I can recognize where they fall on the political spectrum. You see the end result of repression in the realm of economics, liberties, etc.. may be similar and yet the ideologies that produced this outcome is radically different.

All, except one. True liberalism, today known as conservatism and, in another form, Libertarianism.


Conservatism is not Libertarianism. It's just not Coggins. Conservatives hold on to morality and traditions as being paramount over most other considerations. Libertarianism does not do so.

Don't get me wrong, there is a Right/Left split, but it is between true liberalism and Socialism, Fascism, and National Socialism as it appeared in the 30s.


I'm going to ask you again to look at the simplistic left vs. right scale split I posted earlier and ask you to put fascism and socialism in their respective camps.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

You are either feigning ignorance or you are really that stupid. What about the society being a stateless society? That's the main difference here.



Zoid, GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR BLINDLY IDEOLOGICAL, ANTI-AMERICAN POMPOUS DERRIERE AND LISTEN UP. We are not , or at least I am not, talking about any "pure", head in the clouds, starry eyed, hubris bathed dream of a fantasy realm that cannot exist and cannot so much as even be imagined in any intellectually coherent way (especially regarding economics and political economy). We are speaking of actually existing socialist/communist political systems, policies, and the theoretical frameworks that support them.

There is no such thing as "pure communism" and never can be. At least pray there there never can be, because any such system would mean the utter abolition of human liberty and potential.

Let me be clear so your limited intellectual capacity can absorb the concepts presented: all three of the systems we've been bashing each other over are phenomena of the Left; they are siblings. However, as socialism is considered to be a preparatory system that will evolve into communism, it follows that the relationship is really more like that of young form of the same thing maturing into an adult form.
Socialism, including statist dictatorship, totalitarian repression, gulags, economic rape, mass murder, etc., are a larval form of "communism" an anarchic utopia in which there are no classes, and hence, by definition, no free agency. The Eloi, in other words. It follows then, that socialism, while not exactly the same thing as communism, it is, as the system that accomplishes the destruction of the entire old order of the capitalist modes of production, private property rights, individualism, the family and marriage, and anything that could come between the state and the communist future, inextricably linked to communism; it is the larva from which communism emerges. But, since communism is an impossible fantasy, socialism is the end state of socialist theory driven to policy.

Fascism and German National Socialism, having many similar features to socialism (as the extensive articles I posted pointed out), are still "siblings" in a political, social, and theoretical sense.

Pointing out spelling errors won't save the fact that you're running on the fumes of predjudice and what amounts to historical can't, not serious historical knowledge.
Last edited by Dr. Sunstoned on Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
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