LDS & ex-LDS Political Ideologies

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Political Leanings & Shift

 
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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Just out of curiosity should we look to all alliances that America has ever had and then try to somehow equate America's Republic with those it sought an alliance with?


Come on Barrel, be serious. We were allies with the Soviets in WWII after Hitler decided he wanted to eat his cake too.

Communism and Nazism were both forms of socialism, (and communism is also fascistic) albeit with somewhat different characteristics. There were not in any manner, shape,or form different or opposite philosophies. In practices, they are virtually indistinguishable.

American alliances with thugs and dictators over time have one very important difference: they were alliances of convenience against a much greater threat, and had no shared ideological component. The alliance between the Soviets, the Nazis, and Mussolini was both pragmatic and fraternal.

Totalitarian and collectivist systems all, and all with the same fundamental enemy--liberal democracy.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Someone may have noticed how Dr. Pipes uses the term "socialism/communism" with a slash in exactly the way I've used it on occasion here.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Zoidberg
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:42 am

Post by _Zoidberg »

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was never portrayed as an alliance of similar ideologies, Bob. Not even close. Perhaps Book of Mormon is right and we need to remind you of American political involvement over the years. Remember all those military operations you funded to help Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion? It's only when... [I could continue with your line of reasoning, but I don't want to be overly inflammatory].

Coggins, I have never denied that there was totalitarianism in Russia, despite your thinking to the contrary. I guess you are prone to making quick generalizations about people.

The dissidents have come to equate communists with oppression because those who called themsleves communists oppressed people beyond belief. I'm glad you have at least started using the word "totalitarian".

My great-great-grandfather was sent to a labor camp, so shut up and stop preaching to me about gulags here.

I don't think Lenin was cynical and these guys are just hamming it up by demonizing him. Honestly, my opinion of him is much higher than of BY. But his good intentions went terribly awry because forcing people to be nice to each other has never worked.

You seem to have an incredible amount of self-confidence, Coggins. Don't let it slow you down.
"reason and religion are friends and allies" - Mitt Romney
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I don't think Lenin was cynical and these guys are just hamming it up by demonizing him. Honestly, my opinion of him is much higher than of BY. But his good intentions went terribly awry because forcing people to be nice to each other has never worked.


Uh...did...uhh....umm...did you just write here that Vladmir Lenin had "good intentions"? Yes, I see you did.

You also wrote that the man who, directly and indirectly, has the blood of tens of millions of innocents on his hands, is more worthy or respect then Brigham Young. The modest man of good intentions who's philosophy of governance was raw, naked, merciless terror?

Ummm...uhhh....

They are just hamming it up by demonizing Lenin?

Please, this isn't meant to be profanity, but...my God...



Really, reasoned discourse is not possible here. I'm out for the time being.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

But his good intentions went terribly awry because forcing people to be nice to each other has never worked.


What in all Hell???

I just can't seem to get away from this. Its to utterly mind rending.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Zoidberg
_Emeritus
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:42 am

Post by _Zoidberg »

Coggins7 wrote:
But his good intentions went terribly awry because forcing people to be nice to each other has never worked.


What in all Hell???

I just can't seem to get away from this. Its to utterly mind rending.


Yes, I think Lenin's intentions were much better than BY's. Your ridiculously inflated figures are not going to impress me, sorry. And I think BY was pretty cynical.

But I think you going to hang out with your neo-con friends and taking a break from us would be a good idea. Replenish your supply of vitriol.
"reason and religion are friends and allies" - Mitt Romney
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

The Soviet numbers are actually low. Stalin killed 20 million on his own during the Great Terror. This does not include deaths in the Soviet gulags, psychiatric hospitals, and general liquidations that continued after Stalin up until at least the rise of Gorbachev. After him, I'm not sure. The total for the Soviet Union is closer to well over 30 million.

You really do need to read The Black Book of Communism from Harvard University Press and get well away from whatever comic books you've been mistaking as serious history thus far.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

I don't think fascism and socialism are the same. They are both command economies (as opposed to pure capitalism) but here are the differences I see (note: socialist opinions have to do with what Marx wrote, not what came about in Russia/China/etc):

Importance of State
Fascism=focus on Nationalism/the state
Socialism=focus on International community-->eventual shift toward a stateless society (as Marx believed the state's primary purpose was to mediate disputes between economic classes...the single class in power would take away the reason for Marx's state to exist)

Means of Production
Fascism=controlled by state (a minority of the population)
Socialism=controlled by the workers (a majority of the population)

alright: these are off the top of my head. Sleep beckons though....I'll try to do some more tomorrow.


Edit: Also want to say that fascism wasn't the same thing for Nazi Germany and Mussollini's Italy.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_ktallamigo
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A leftie always

Post by _ktallamigo »

I was born and raised in a very far, right-wing household.

While I studied history in college, I changed my political views 180 degrees.

I've been a "liberal", while remaining active LDS.

Oh, and I am a returned missionary from Peru, which further confirmed my world view.

Only within the last year have I taken a critical view of the church, and have been voraciously reading uncensored church history, etc.

My political views remain the same.


ktall
"Brigham said the day would come when thousands would be made Eunuchs in order for them to be saved in the kingdom of God." (Wilford Woodruff's Diary, June 2, 1857, Vol. 5, pages 54-55)
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

So, wondering how this went from defining libertarianism on the left - right political spectrum and it turns into pages of 'penis envy' and communist ranting?

How does that occur?
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