LDS & ex-LDS Political Ideologies

[_barrelomonkeys]

I don't think fascism and socialism are the same. They are both command economies (as opposed to pure capitalism) but here are the differences I see (note: socialist opinions have to do with what Marx wrote, not what came about in Russia/China/etc):

Importance of State
Fascism=focus on Nationalism/the state
Socialism=focus on International community-->eventual shift toward a stateless society (as Marx believed the state's primary purpose was to mediate disputes between economic classes...the single class in power would take away the reason for Marx's state to exist)

Means of Production
Fascism=controlled by state (a minority of the population)
Socialism=controlled by the workers (a majority of the population)

alright: these are off the top of my head. Sleep beckons though....I'll try to do some more tomorrow.


Edit: Also want to say that fascism wasn't the same thing for Nazi Germany and Mussollini's Italy.

So very correct Bond.

Fascism is usually defined by a number of points that I've mentioned. Cult of personality, nationalism, contempt for those that may be perceived as weak in the society, and a strong need for the "rebirth" of the country. Fascists embrace social darwinism in the extreme.

[Guest]

The Soviet numbers are actually low. Stalin killed 20 million on his own during the Great Terror. This does not include deaths in the Soviet gulags, psychiatric hospitals, and general liquidations that continued after Stalin up until at least the rise of Gorbachev. After him, I'm not sure. The total for the Soviet Union is closer to well over 30 million.

You really do need to read The Black Book of Communism from Harvard University Press and get well away from whatever comic books you've been mistaking as serious history thus far.

I thought you were leaving? Yeah, my only reading was comic books in the history department. You are still unable to differentiate between history, economy and political ideology. What a sad, pathetic case.

General liquidations until Gorbachev?!? There were some exiles even after Stalin, but that's it.

Some nerve, trying to teach me my own history out of a sensationalized book. by the way, one of the authors, Nicolas Werth, said in an interview with Le Monde: "The more you compare communism and nazism, the more the differences are obvious."

Care to account for that, numbskull?

In theory, national socialism may be similar to socialism as a transitional phase to communism in terms of the state controlling the means of production, but the difference is, as Bond has correctly pointed out, what "the state" means. That in reality workers have not controlled much is irrelevant to definitions.

You really should know better. Do you want me to start bringing up everything your church has done over the years, including massacres, racism, misogyny and child abuse? Oh wait, I know: the difference is that God commanded all of that. God's church can get away with all that, and the Gospel is still this wonderful thing that will bring us all to salvation. But if people who call themselves communists screw up, this means that communism is evil. Yes, this makes a buttload of sense.

[_Zoidberg]

So, wondering how this went from defining libertarianism on the left - right political spectrum and it turns into pages of 'penis envy' and communist ranting?

How does that occur?

I thought Coggins has already explained how modern-day liberals are all commies. Or fascists, or Nazis - it's all the same.

They are all godless heathens who want to take away American freedom to carry guns, torture prisoners, invade whatever countries they please without giving a damn about what the UN has to say... You get the idea. What a miserable country it will be if Kucinich wins! In fact, I'm sure he would start his term with opening a gulag.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Just out of curiosity should we look to all alliances that America has ever had and then try to somehow equate America's Republic with those it sought an alliance with?

Come on Barrel, be serious. We were allies with the Soviets in WWII after Hitler decided he wanted to eat his cake too.

Communism and Nazism were both forms of socialism, (and communism is also fascistic) albeit with somewhat different characteristics. There were not in any manner, shape,or form different or opposite philosophies. In practices, they are virtually indistinguishable.

American alliances with thugs and dictators over time have one very important difference: they were alliances of convenience against a much greater threat, and had no shared ideological component. The alliance between the Soviets, the Nazis, and Mussolini was both pragmatic and fraternal.

Totalitarian and collectivist systems all, and all with the same fundamental enemy--liberal democracy.

How about this Coggins. You tell me how you perceive the ideological similarities and differences between fascism and communism.

I'm sort of getting to the point where I don't wish to reply to you anymore.

You seem to completely ignore all of the theory I've been speaking of. I'm well aware of the historical contexts of the various states and yet you seem to latch on to the similarities and dismiss the very clear underlying philosophies that were present.

[_barrelomonkeys]

So, wondering how this went from defining libertarianism on the left - right political spectrum and it turns into pages of 'penis envy' and communist ranting?

How does that occur?

I thought Coggins has already explained how modern-day liberals are all commies. Or fascists, or Nazis - it's all the same.

They are all godless heathens who want to take away American freedom to carry guns, torture prisoners, invade whatever countries they please without giving a damn about what the UN has to say... You get the idea. What a miserable country it will be if Kucinich wins! In fact, I'm sure he would start his term with opening a gulag.

Oh no doubt about that! That commie will immediately scoop up any and all dissidents (or those perceived as enemies because of ethnicity) and send them off to a secured location to protect society against their influence.

Oh wait, I think we've done that before. eeeeep!

[_Zoidberg]

So, wondering how this went from defining libertarianism on the left - right political spectrum and it turns into pages of 'penis envy' and communist ranting?

How does that occur?

I thought Coggins has already explained how modern-day liberals are all commies. Or fascists, or Nazis - it's all the same.

They are all godless heathens who want to take away American freedom to carry guns, torture prisoners, invade whatever countries they please without giving a damn about what the UN has to say... You get the idea. What a miserable country it will be if Kucinich wins! In fact, I'm sure he would start his term with opening a gulag.

Oh no doubt about that! That commie will immediately scoop up any and all dissidents (or those perceived as enemies because of ethnicity) and send them off to a secured location to protect society against their influence.

Oh wait, I think we've done that before. eeeeep!

Yeah, but that was to protect the freedoms this country is notorious for. Anything to protect freedom! Wire-tapping, blocking people's property, violating international protocol - no price is too high to pay for preserving freedom!

[_barrelomonkeys]

Yeah, but that was to protect the freedoms this country is notorious for. Anything to protect freedom! Wire-tapping, blocking people's property, violating international protocol - no price is too high to pay for preserving freedom!

Ack! I see another 7 pages starting..........NOW!

:)

[_Zoidberg]

Yeah, but that was to protect the freedoms this country is notorious for. Anything to protect freedom! Wire-tapping, blocking people's property, violating international protocol - no price is too high to pay for preserving freedom!

Ack! I see another 7 pages starting..........NOW!

:)

Ahem... back to the original topic - my political views stayed the same before, during and after the Church.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Ahem... back to the original topic - my political views stayed the same before, during and after the Church.

As I suspected. A pinko commie before, during and after leaving the Church.

No doubt the penis envy occurred after you became an ex-Mo. That's how these things go.

[_Bond...James Bond]

I don't think fascism and socialism are the same. They are both command economies (as opposed to pure capitalism) but here are the differences I see (note: socialist opinions have to do with what Marx wrote, not what came about in Russia/China/etc):

Importance of State
Fascism=focus on Nationalism/the state
Socialism=focus on International community-->eventual shift toward a stateless society (as Marx believed the state's primary purpose was to mediate disputes between economic classes...the single class in power would take away the reason for Marx's state to exist)

Means of Production
Fascism=controlled by state (a minority of the population)
Socialism=controlled by the workers (a majority of the population)

alright: these are off the top of my head. Sleep beckons though....I'll try to do some more tomorrow.


Edit: Also want to say that fascism wasn't the same thing for Nazi Germany and Mussollini's Italy.

So very correct Bond.

Fascism is usually defined by a number of points that I've mentioned. Cult of personality, nationalism, contempt for those that may be perceived as weak in the society, and a strong need for the "rebirth" of the country. Fascists embrace social darwinism in the extreme.

Not only that....but facism thrived on Anti-communism (and Nazism really made hay out of combining antisemitism and anticommunism). Fascism (in theory anyway) seems to be exclusive based on race, culture, religion, etc while socialism is exclusive based on economic class. Of course since socialism favors the lower class it means that it focuses on the majority, while fascism seems to focus on a elite minority (militaristic nature, nationalism, etc).

In my mind anyway, fascism defined itself by the cultural/language/location stuff (IE Nationalistic thought). Socialism (at least as written by Marx) focused on economic position and circumstances, and thought that people were more driven by their economic class and situation than by cultural ties/language ties. In effect Marx thought that workers from across the world will have more in common with other workers than with their own countrymen (something he got wrong by the way).