Word Change Acknowledged in SLtrib article

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Gadianton wrote:I can give credit to DCP though. Back on Z, if I remember right, he said that he wouldn't mind seeing that portion of the introduction changed. Perhaps he even had something to do with it. But this was an instance where the guy didn't try to completely twist plain english as many of his fellow apologists did.


Perhaps he was aware that the LGT was taught in the 19th century (I had the quotes, but will have to look them up again).

In 1927, Janne Sjodahl stated that "students of the Book of Mormon should be cautioned against the error of supposing that all the American Indians are the descendants of Lehi, Mulek and their companions" (Smith & Reynolds 1997, p. 263).....

In 1938 a church study guide for the Book of Mormon stated that "the Book of Mormon deals only with the history and expansion of three small colonies which came to America, and it does not deny or disprove the possibility of other immigrations, which probably would be unknown to its writers" (Smith & Reynolds 1997, p. 263).

In the 1920s, LDS General Authority and historian B.H. Roberts questioned the assumption of a hemispheric geography and population model for the Book of Mormon. In his critical examination of the Book of Mormon, eventually published in 1985 under the title Studies of the Book of Mormon, Roberts states:

[C]ould the people of Mulek and of Lehi...part of the time numbering and occupying the land at least from Yucatan to Cumorah...live and move and have their being in the land of America and not come in contact with other races and tribes of men, if such existed in the New World within Book of Mormon times? To make this seem possible the area occupied by the Nephites and Lamanites would have to be extremely limited, much more limited, I fear, than the Book of Mormon would admit our assuming (Roberts 1985, p. 93).


The LGT, actually, goes back to Joseph Smith.
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Post by _Chap »

The LGT, presumably with the concept of Book of Mormon people living in a sea of 'others' goes back to Joseph Smith? Really Ray?

Well here is what he wrote for publication in Times and Seasons Vol.3 No.9, 1 March 1842



[...]

On the evening of the 21st of September, A.D. 1823, while I was praying unto God, and endeavoring to exercise faith in the precious promises of scripture on a sudden a light like that of day, only of a far purer and more glorious appearance, and brightness burst into the room, indeed the first sight was as though the house was filled with consuming fire; the appearance produced a shock that affected the whole body; in a moment a personage stood before me surrounded with a glory yet greater than that with which I was already surrounded. This messenger proclaimed himself to be an angel of God sent to bring the joyful tidings, that the covenant which God made with ancient Israel was at hand to be fulfilled, that the preparatory work for the second coming of the Messiah was speedily to commence; that the time was at hand for the gospel, in all its fulness to be preached in power, unto all nations that a people might be prepared for the millennial reign.

I was informed that I was chosen to be an instrument in the hands of God to bring about some of His purposes in this glorious dispensation.

I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country [America], and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people was made known unto me: I was also told where there was deposited some plates on which were engraven an abridgment of the records of the ancient prophets that had existed on this continent. The angel appeared to me three times the same night and unfolded the same things. After having received many visits from the angels of God unfolding the majesty and glory of the events that should transpire in the last days, on the morning of the 22d of September, A.D. 1827, the angel of the Lord delivered the records into my hands.

[...]

In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel, at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem, about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country.


There is no sign here of anything but an empty continent, which is colonised by two groups, one being the Jaredites and the others being the Nephi party.

Please notice too that we cannot say that Joseph Smith just failed to understand the Book of Mormon correctly, and that we have to study it independent of his mere 'as a man' opinions: he tells us clearly that through the direct voice of his angelic visitor (and NOT from the Book of Mormon, which he had not yet translated), he was

informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country [America], and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people was made known unto me


So what he tells us comes direct from Moroni - and is surely reliable, unless we are to be told that in this instance Moroni "was only speaking as an angel".
_Who Knows
_Emeritus
Posts: 2455
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:09 pm

Post by _Who Knows »

Chap wrote:So what he tells us comes direct from Moroni - and is surely reliable, unless we are to be told that in this instance Moroni "was only speaking as an angel".


CFR that angels are infallible.

lol.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Post by _Chap »

Who Knows wrote:
Chap wrote:So what he tells us comes direct from Moroni - and is surely reliable, unless we are to be told that in this instance Moroni "was only speaking as an angel".


CFR that angels are infallible.

lol.


Of course the real question about Moroni is - did he go to the right log cabin that night? The signs are that he goofed.
_The Dude
_Emeritus
Posts: 2976
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:16 am

Post by _The Dude »

Ray A wrote:The LGT, actually, goes back to Joseph Smith.


Bull s***, Ray. Bull s***.

Every time Joseph Smith had a chance to identify an aboriginal artifact or bone, he linked it to Lamanites and Nephites. Whether it was a mound in New York, a skeleton in the Midwest, or a ruin in Central America, it was evidence (for Joseph Smith) of Book of Mormon people.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_Sethbag
_Emeritus
Posts: 6855
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:52 am

Post by _Sethbag »

Ray, I think it's funny that you quote from BH Roberts' book. That's the same book where he suggests that Joseph Smith could have written the Book of Mormon himself. Be careful quoting that book; there be dragons!
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

The Dude wrote:Bull s***, Ray. Bull s***.

Every time Joseph Smith had a chance to identify an aboriginal artifact or bone, he linked it to Lamanites and Nephites. Whether it was a mound in New York, a skeleton in the Midwest, or a ruin in Central America, it was evidence (for Joseph Smith) of Book of Mormon people.


Joseph Smith did not fully understand the Book of Mormon. He assumed many things, but he did not know. Your knowledge of his full range of statements, seems lacking, Dude. At the moment, I don't have time to provide the "b***s***" evidence, but it might be worth considering, when I do.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Sethbag wrote:Ray, I think it's funny that you quote from BH Roberts' book. That's the same book where he suggests that Joseph Smith could have written the Book of Mormon himself. Be careful quoting that book; there be dragons!


I think it funny too, that Tom Ferguson went looking for evidence of the Book of Mormon in Central America, not Peru. I think neither you nor the Dude get my point yet.
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Post by _Chap »

Ray A wrote:
The Dude wrote:Bull s***, Ray. Bull s***.

Every time Joseph Smith had a chance to identify an aboriginal artifact or bone, he linked it to Lamanites and Nephites. Whether it was a mound in New York, a skeleton in the Midwest, or a ruin in Central America, it was evidence (for Joseph Smith) of Book of Mormon people.


Joseph Smith did not fully understand the Book of Mormon. He assumed many things, but he did not know. Your knowledge of his full range of statements, seems lacking, Dude. At the moment, I don't have time to provide the "b***s***" evidence, but it might be worth considering, when I do.


Ray A - see above. As Joseph Smith stated clearly in the Wentworth letter, through the words of the angel who visited him he was

"informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country [America], and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people was made known unto me"

That was BEFORE he was told where to find the gold plates from which he allegedly translated the Book of Mormon. So his views of ancient American demography came straight from the angel's mouth, not from things that he "assumed".

Really Ray, do pay attention.

And as you say, your evidence will be worth considering when you produce it. Until then ...
_Trevor
_Emeritus
Posts: 7213
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:28 pm

Post by _Trevor »

Chap wrote:Ray A - see above. As Joseph Smith stated clearly in the Wentworth letter, through the words of the angel who visited him he was

"informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country [America], and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people was made known unto me"


Come on, Chap! It was the angel who was mistaken. Do you expect the LDS Church to stand by the fevered ramblings of angelic messengers? They aren't doctrine!
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
Post Reply