Two more bite the dust!

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_Trinity
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Re: Two more bite the dust!

Post by _Trinity »

charity wrote:It is none of my business which of the sealings were dynastic and which were marriages. I would not be upset either direction. Marriages and marriage relations are between the people involved. I think everyone should just butt out of private lives.


Oooh! I agree! Which is exactly what I told my bishop when he asked me about oral sex in a temple recommend interview shortly after hubby and I were married.
_guy sajer
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Re: Two more bite the dust!

Post by _guy sajer »

Trinity wrote:
charity wrote:It is none of my business which of the sealings were dynastic and which were marriages. I would not be upset either direction. Marriages and marriage relations are between the people involved. I think everyone should just butt out of private lives.


Oooh! I agree! Which is exactly what I told my bishop when he asked me about oral sex in a temple recommend interview shortly after hubby and I were married.


When an organization holds it members to very high standards of sexual conduct; when it, almost from the cradle, teaches its members that adultry is next to murder in terms of seriousness; when it inflicts untold guilt and self-disgust on thousands of normal teenagers for masturbating; when it deigns to ask intrusive questions about people's sex lives and practices; when it encourages grown men to quiz adolescent girls and boys in private about their sexual practices; when it makes its members feel like dirt for feeling normal sexual desires; when it has caused grief and guilt for married couples for practicing oral sex; when it expels members for sexual "sins," when, in other words, it makes our sex life ITS business, then we damn well have a right to expect at least as high sexual standards from its leaders, both past and present; and their sex lives become OUR business, to the extent that their behavior deviates from the behavioral standards to which they hold us.

Of course, for Mormon leadership, accountability is a one-way street, and loyal drones like Charity allow them to get away with it.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »


There was a polygamy thread on MAD about 6 months ago where an apologist argued that it was the right of powerful (read: better men!) to take as many women as he could. Those less worthy men just would have to suck it up. I was stunned and was all over that thread. Only one other apologist really chimed in slightly.

This apologist claimed that women were truly just the nobler species and deserved the best of a male. I was stunned and came back with data that showed that abuse in relationships were practically on par for the sexes and went head to head with all his points. I couldn't believe that anyone would really believe that in a free society that there should be countless men that went without wives. Appears to me that this would break down the social structure of society. Yet, this male apologist was all for it. Odd. I think I went in and deleted all my posts though in a fit. Oh well.

It just struck me as very startling and bizarre.


It is bizarre, but it’s what happens when True Believers are protecting their belief – logic, reason, and even morals are all eligible to be thrown out the window.

The idea that women are more pure and more righteous then men has a very long history in the LDS culture. I think it did evolve partially to explain polygamy, although Joseph Smith didn’t seem to need such justification. He just thought that certain women had been given to him in the pre-existence, and he had every right to take them in this life, even if they were already married to some other poor sap. I long ago concluded that Joseph Smith didn’t have clear boundaries between himself and God, so if he felt desire and attraction to a woman, it meant that God was telling him that women was “his”.

But most people, including modern Mormons, are somewhat uncomfortable with that level of audacity, so had to construct new reasoning to explain why, at least in the CK, polygamy was not only allowed, but encouraged, and maybe even required. So the idea that there will be more women in the CK evolved.

In addition, I think it’s part of the gilded pedestal that patriarchal religions so often place women on. Women are just more pure, must be protected from the evil world, even to the extent that Heavenly Father forbids the worship of Heavenly Mother to “protect” her.

I’ve also seen female MADdites support this idea, that women should have the right to attach themselves to more desirable men, even if he’s already married, that this increases their personal power. Of course, many women do adhere to that sort of idea already, and are more than willing to share a powerful man. But just because something exists in our species does not mean we should condone and celebrate it. In many ways, early Mormonism seemed savagely Darwinian to me.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Guy...

When an organization holds it members to very high standards of sexual conduct; when it, almost from the cradle, teaches its members that adultry is next to murder in terms of seriousness; when it inflicts untold guilt and self-disgust on thousands of normal teenagers for masturbating; when it deigns to ask intrusive questions about people's sex lives and practices; when it encourages grown men to quiz adolescent girls and boys in private about their sexual practices; when it makes its members feel like dirt for feeling normal sexual desires; when it has caused grief and guilt for married couples for practicing oral sex; when it expels members for sexual "sins," when, in other words, it makes our sex life ITS business, then we damn well have a right to expect at least as high sexual standards from its leaders, both past and present; and their sex lives become OUR business, to the extent that their behavior deviates from the behavioral standards to which they hold us.


Nicely stated!

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_charity
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Post by _charity »

runtu said: So, yeah, ruling out two unlikely candidates really bolsters the case that--well, what does it indicate?

charity: It only adds to the truths of the situation dispelling claimed truths. Did you read that DNA testing just recently ruled out a person as the offspring of George Gipp? The reason given for doing it was just to set the record straight.

the road to hana: marriage is by definition a unioin of a man and a woman. Including Joseph Smith's marriages?

charity: yep. Each sealing was one man to one woman. There were other sealings of the same man to another woman. But each individual sealing/marriage was a man to a woman.

Pokatator :So then please apply your two statements, "I also think that any group can put down their own rules. And then if you want to belong to the group you follow the rules. You can't say you want to belong but you think the rules are stupid. Go find a group that agrees with what you think." and "It is none of my business which of the sealings were dynastic and which were marriages. I would not be upset either direction. Marriages and marriage relations are between the people involved. I think everyone should just butt out of private lives."

charity: Jeffs had to go along with the law of the land after it had been adjudicated by the Supreme Court, just as the LDS had to. Whether we like it or not, marriages are regulated by county and state and federal law. So, everyone ought to butt out of the private lives of married couples.

Warren Jeffs wasn't following the law of the land.
_msnobody
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Post by _msnobody »

charity wrote:
MishMagnet wrote:How is one to know if one is being deceived, though? The Lafferty brothers felt they were acting on God's command in committing two murders. Is there any point you would draw the line, Charity? At what point would you start to wonder if you weren't being deceived? You are alluding to killing your own child on God's orders in your post, are you not?


Every person has to answer to himself and God over the light he/she follows. And every person has to be willing to face the consequences for their own actions.

I haven't been through my own personal Abrahamic test yet. At least I don't think so. (I mean Abrahamic in the sense of being asked to make some kind of supreme sacrifice. Not in the literal test that Abraham had.) I think that maybe the magnitude of the test varies with the level of the individual. For Abraham, as strong as he was, it took something really big to see if he would obey. For some of the others of us, it would take a lot less because we aren't as strong. For someone else it might be giving up coffee.


Could you sacrifice or leave behind Mormonism for trusting in Christ alone?
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

msnobody,

Mormonism for trusting in Christ alone


Mormonism and trusting in Christ are the same thing.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Polygamy Porter
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Post by _Polygamy Porter »

charity wrote:Jeffs had to go along with the law of the land after it had been adjudicated by the Supreme Court, just as the LDS had to. Whether we like it or not, marriages are regulated by county and state and federal law. So, everyone ought to butt out of the private lives of married couples.

Warren Jeffs wasn't following the law of the land.
Ohhh reeeaaaahhhiiillly?

And how about back in the day of Nauvoo when Smith was not following the law of the land concerning polygamy?

In case you did not know, the state of Illinois enacted a law in 1833 which forbade being married to more than one spouse.

What next sister? You will say that smith was not legally married to these ladies?

OK then, he was committing adultery with these ladies then, which was forbidden by his own doctrine!

What next sissy? You will say he never had sex with any of these ladies and young prepubescent girls?

Fine, tell me then, why your leadership and scholars call it PLURAL MARRIAGE and POLYGAMY? And all who practiced it before and after Smith DID have sex with their wives, so please tell us WHY the "restorer" of this grand principle did not fully adopt it by raising up righteous seed by HAVING SEX with these other wives???
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Gazelam wrote:msnobody,

Mormonism for trusting in Christ alone


Mormonism and trusting in Christ are the same thing.


You forgot the "alone", Gaz. That's the operative word.
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

harmony wrote:
Gazelam wrote:msnobody,

Mormonism for trusting in Christ alone


Mormonism and trusting in Christ are the same thing.


You forgot the "alone", Gaz. That's the operative word.


Trusting in Christ means accepting his servants. You can't even have faith in Christ without hearing about him through the testimony of his servants. Folowing Christ means partaking in the covenants he has asked you to make with him, and to do that you have to make those covenants through his authorized priesthood bearers, who stand in for him by proxy in serving you.

Shall I go on?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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