What could the church possibly even fill one bookshelf with in this so called "library"?
Will this be like the Family History Library, where no books can be checked out, and everything can only be accessed by sitting on the floor surrounded by a pile of books?
All that stuff in the Vault can go into the library, Inconceivable. Except they'd have to restrict everyone from seeing it. LOL
Personal journals are probably the most damning of all records that show the church in it's true light.
Infymus wrote:How many Mormons does it take to change a light bulb? Change? What change?
You really like this light bulb joke, huh?
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
So, let's see if I can summarize the criicisms of the library building.
1. It will be fliled with stuff nobody can have access to.
2. It won't have anything in it because all the "juicy" stuff is in the vault.
3. It won't have anything in it because all the "juicy" stuff has been destroyed.
Is this a multiple choice quiz?
And down to the real stuff, blixa's question is a good one. The only example I know of is the ephod and Urim and Thummim of the Old Testament description. But here is the real question. Were they just symbols, or were they functioning items, necessary in the practice of the religion.
Oh, and there is the Liahona, but while that was very useful for the assistance in their recoking to the Nephites, it didn't seem to be necessary for the prophet to have in his possession in order to be a prophet.
charity wrote:And down to the real stuff, blixa's question is a good one. The only example I know of is the ephod and Urim and Thummim of the Old Testament description. But here is the real question. Were they just symbols, or were they functioning items, necessary in the practice of the religion.
Oh, and there is the Liahona, but while that was very useful for the assistance in their recoking to the Nephites, it didn't seem to be necessary for the prophet to have in his possession in order to be a prophet.
charity wrote:I was told just recently by someone who is in a position to know that the Urim and Thummim are not there. I asked the question, specifically, because it was my understanding that possession of the Urim and Thummim is what makes a person a seer. And since we sustain the prophet and apostles as seers, that must mean the Church is in possession of them. I was told my understanidng was not correct and they are not in the Church vault, or anywhere else in the possession of the Church.
So which is it?
Where's that "small still voice"?
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably. bcspace
Inconceivable wrote:Personal journals are probably the most damning of all records that show the church in it's true light.
How so?
There are many things that people would not say in public that they will expound upon in a personal diary. Family secrets, such as sexual crimes, bastard children, child/drug/alcohol/spousal abuse, financial records, private conversations, analysis of sacred/spiritual experiences.
Consider these examples:
The letters that recently turned up written by Mother Teresa.
The journals of BF Johnson, particularly in regard to Joseph Smith's carnal knowledge of women while bedding in his own home, the flaming sword references etc.
BH Roberts concerns of the veracity of the Book of Mormon
All the journal references of the duped women in books such as "In Sacred Loneliness" etc.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
charity wrote:I was told just recently by someone who is in a position to know that the Urim and Thummim are not there. I asked the question, specifically, because it was my understanding that possession of the Urim and Thummim is what makes a person a seer. And since we sustain the prophet and apostles as seers, that must mean the Church is in possession of them. I was told my understanidng was not correct and they are not in the Church vault, or anywhere else in the possession of the Church.
Thanks for that list Phaedrus.
I also don't believe the Urim and Thummim is in the Church's possession, but my reason is a bit different. I don't think there ever was a Urim and Thummim, at least not one that Joseph Smith or anyone else in the LDS church ever had. That's just part of the story that was made up. We know that Joseph Smith used his peepstone while creating the Book of Mormon, and I don't recall ever reading any account from Emma or anyone else where he actually used what was described as the Urim and Thummim.
Ditto with Laban's Sword - it doesn't exist. Ditto with the Liahona.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
charity wrote:I was told just recently by someone who is in a position to know that the Urim and Thummim are not there. I asked the question, specifically, because it was my understanding that possession of the Urim and Thummim is what makes a person a seer. And since we sustain the prophet and apostles as seers, that must mean the Church is in possession of them. I was told my understanidng was not correct and they are not in the Church vault, or anywhere else in the possession of the Church.
Thanks for that list Phaedrus.
I also don't believe the Urim and Thummim is in the Church's possession, but my reason is a bit different. I don't think there ever was a Urim and Thummim, at least not one that Joseph Smith or anyone else in the LDS church ever had. That's just part of the story that was made up. We know that Joseph Smith used his peepstone while creating the Book of Mormon, and I don't recall ever reading any account from Emma or anyone else where he actually used what was described as the Urim and Thummim.
Ditto with Laban's Sword - it doesn't exist. Ditto with the Liahona.
Ask Dan Vogel, he might be cooking up a "tin foil liahona" theory as we type!
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
The FPV is of great interest to me historically. It bugs the hell out of me that the LDS Church may be keeping important historical materials hidden from the world, but, then, their interest in history seems to be more of a Disney-like celebration of a past they want to believe.
As one who does not believe in the LDS Church's claims, it makes little difference to me whether they open the vault or not. After all, everything a person needs to know to conclude the LDS Church is simply another man-made religion is contained in the LDS scriptures people cart to church every Sunday. It is one of those little secrets of life that is hidden right out in the open.
In my cantankerous moments I glory in the fact that the LDS Church hides things in a secret vault. This is far more revealing of the nature of the organization than any juicy fact they may be hiding. I should think all critics of the LDS Church would be disappointed if they did open the vault. It is actually far more damaging that they keep it closed--damaging in what it says about them and damaging in how imaginations run wild wondering how juicy the hidden secrets must be.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”