Two more bite the dust!

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_Pokatator
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Post by _Pokatator »

Charity wrote: Let' s get back to your real post, and not the rabbit trail you want to take us down. You asked me what about same sex marraiges. I said there was no such thing as a same sex marraige, because marriage is between a man and a woman. You did not reply back to that, but went down the "a man a woman" track.


The post you are referring to and your answer:

Pokatator :So then please apply your two statements, "I also think that any group can put down their own rules. And then if you want to belong to the group you follow the rules. You can't say you want to belong but you think the rules are stupid. Go find a group that agrees with what you think." and "It is none of my business which of the sealings were dynastic and which were marriages. I would not be upset either direction. Marriages and marriage relations are between the people involved. I think everyone should just butt out of private lives."


charity: Jeffs had to go along with the law of the land after it had been adjudicated by the Supreme Court, just as the LDS had to. Whether we like it or not, marriages are regulated by county and state and federal law. So, everyone ought to butt out of the private lives of married couples.

Warren Jeffs wasn't following the law of the land.


Charity just take your posts above at word value and nothing else, just what you wrote not what you meant or that you thought was implied. If that is your opinion with no clarification or implied meanings you would be in favor of same sex marriages or letting the FLDS Mormons do whatever they want. I knew that you were not in favor of same sex marriages or FDLS Mormons but your post did not indicate that. Nor did you indicate anything about law or following the law of the land.

I knew what your next responses were going to be and I agree with your "Jeffs broke the law" statement but so did Joseph Smith and Porter answered that. I had no real problem with your definition relating to same sex marriages, I think that is the understood definition whether I agree with it or not. That is why I never responded to you on that. But as you interpreted the marriage definition further I did and do take exception and thus I responded to you about "a man a woman". And I wish to respond further and it is not a rabbit hole, it is the natural course of discussion of your interpretation of the definition of marriage.

Charity wrote: Okay. Let's follow that one. In each plural marriage, the man and the woman are united in marriage. There aren't three pairs of hands on the altar. Just two. So that still works.


So two pairs of hands, multiple times meets your definition? I declare that there were many hands on the altar. In some cases it could be viewed as: a wife and a husband and Joseph's hands equal six hands, that's 3 pairs Charity and then this was done multiple times. I guess you can't understand how someone can view this as even sicker than what just plain polygamy is.

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

How many "they two shall be one flesh" unions can there be? It doesn't say "they three or four or more become one flesh".

Charity wrote: And about the law. The "law" was clearly ambiguous until the Supreme Court made its ruling. The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion. It was clearly the position of the Church that this was part of the religion and therefore the laws against it were unconstitutional. When the Supreme Court ruled, the Manifesto was issued. And yes, you can predict that I think the Federal Government did and continuese to interfere with free exercise of religion guaranteed in the Constitiution, and the Supreme Court was wrong.


So you are saying the Joseph Smith took advantage of a loop hole in the law? So be that. But don't you think it was against the law to marry another man's wife? If that is freedom of religion even as Joseph Smith interpreted it where is that written down? Is that in D&C 132?

Charity wrote: It is pretty hard to play tag with your feet knocked out from under you. I guess I won't see anything posted back on this. You have no reply.


So you admit that your feet were knocked out from under you? You better watch out for rabbit holes a little better Alice.

I am replying back, I think your logic on this issue and argument on the definition of marriage is about the lamest I have ever heard ever. Tag.

Coggie or Gazum are good at scriptures are you?

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Why didn't God give Adam more than one wife? He certainly could have spared another rib or two. With the command to multiply and fill the earth it seems this would have been the perfect time to institute polygamy if God had deemed it as a Godly practice, don't you think?

Tit 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Just small part of the Bible that states one wife not wives, or one wife multiple times. But I guess those are the very parts that have not been translated correctly. Right?
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
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_charity
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Post by _charity »

Pokatator: Charity just take your posts above at word value and nothing else, just what you wrote not what you meant or that you thought was implied. If that is your opinion with no clarification or implied meanings you would be in favor of same sex marriages or letting the FLDS Mormons do whatever they want. I knew that you were not in favor of same sex marriages or FDLS Mormons but your post did not indicate that. Nor did you indicate anything about law or following the law of the land.

charity: People can do what they want, as long as they are of the age of consent, or capable of consent. So the FLDS can do what they want as consenting adults. As far as I know, if you aren't married to two people at the same time with county recognized marriage licenses, you can cohabit as much as you want. Iszn't that what we condone in our society now? People have mutliple sexual partners all the time.

And as far as that goes, whatever happened with plural marriages in Nauvoo or even Utah, if the "marriages" were only performed in temples, then the government had no business meddling. I don't see men with mistresses today being hauled into court. Why not?

Pokatator: I knew what your next responses were going to be and I agree with your "Jeffs broke the law" statement but so did Joseph Smith and Porter answered that.

charity: I don't know that Jeff's broke that bigamy laws. He was tried for faciliatating sex with a minor, or something like that. Was he tried for bigamy?

Charity wrote: Okay. Let's follow that one. In each plural marriage, the man and the woman are united in marriage. There aren't three pairs of hands on the altar. Just two. So that still works.


Pokator: So two pairs of hands, multiple times meets your definition?

charity: Yes. If God commands.

Pokatator: I declare that there were many hands on the altar. In some cases it could be viewed as: a wife and a husband and Joseph's hands equal six hands, that's 3 pairs Charity and then this was done multiple times. I guess you can't understand how someone can view this as even sicker than what just plain polygamy is.

charity: I don't think we know all that we need to to know. And I am willing to wait to know the real truth.

Pokatator:
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

How many "they two shall be one flesh" unions can there be? It doesn't say "they three or four or more become one flesh".

charity: I think with men, there can be multiple committed marriages, as long as it is blessed by God. I think there are special blessings that come along with that which are not found in relationships outside of God's law.

Pokatator:So you are saying the Joseph Smith took advantage of a loop hole in the law? So be that. But don't you think it was against the law to marry another man's wife? If that is freedom of religion even as Joseph Smith interpreted it where is that written down? Is that in D&C 132?

charity: Freedom of religion is freedom of religion. I don't find the Bill of Rights to be loopholes.

Pokatator: I think your logic on this issue and argument on the definition of marriage is about the lamest I have ever heard ever. Tag.

charity: Maybe that's why we aren't both active members of the Church right now? We don't look at things in the same way? Who would have thought.

Pokatator:
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

charity: Why do think that this is only a commandment for deacons and bishops? If everybody was supposed to have only one wife, why not just say "Let every man be the husband of one wife."

OBVIOUSLY, because plural marriage was permissable for others. Duh.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

charity wrote:
charity: Freedom of religion is freedom of religion. I don't find the Bill of Rights to be loopholes.


Actually, marriage is and always has been heavily mired with governmental oversight, due to the inheritance aspect. The passing of land and wealth has been under governmental oversight since man gave up hunting and started farming. Religion grabbed onto the idea, and created the brilliant idea of marriage as a religious rite, but back when man first moved out of the hunter-gatherer stage and into the agricultural stage, marriage was only for the rich and only to preserve the inheritance for the next generation.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

beastie wrote:
In other words, while lots of guys are OK with polygamy, the idea that their wives can be sleeping with other men feels uncomfortable.


Yes, I guess for some it takes the sex to make them uncomfortable, but really - shouldn't they already be uncomfortable with just the idea that a church leader TOOK another man's wife for his own, even it it's just for eternities????


Honestly it bugs me that:

Men practiced polygamy and had sex with more then one wife
Joseph Smith may have practiced polyandry that included sex with women who had other husbands
Even if there were no sex why did at least the women with faithful husbands need Joseph Smith for in the eternity? This bugs me. And if it was some dynastic deal that involved no sex then why would there be some pecking order like this when God is no respecter of persons.


As for polyandry and BY, we know he had sex with his one polyandrous wife because Zina bore him a child.
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Jason Bourne wrote:Honestly it bugs me that:

Men practiced polygamy and had sex with more then one wife
Joseph Smith may have practiced polyandry that included sex with women who had other husbands
Even if there were no sex why did at least the women with faithful husbands need Joseph Smith for in the eternity? This bugs me. And if it was some dynastic deal that involved no sex then why would there be some pecking order like this when God is no respecter of persons.


Bugs me too, Jason. But, I think it is relatively clear that Joseph was the key mortal personality in this Church. I am not certain that in reality there was ever much about it that was truly egalitarian. The leadership really did always have the special perks, and no one more so than Joseph Smith himself.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Two more bite the dust!

Post by _Jason Bourne »

charity wrote:
the road to hana wrote:
charity wrote:A genetic testing lab just released data that according to DNA testing, Mosiah Hancock and Oliver Buell, the darlings of the polyandry crowd, are definately NOT Joseph Smith's offspring.


Charity, a question.

Which would be more disturbing to you? To learn that Joseph Smith had sex with his wives? Or to learn that he didn't?

It's unclear to me why anyone defending Joseph Smith or the church he organized would think sexless marriage was a good thing, or be celebrating any possible evidence that might indicate that his relationships with "wives" was entirely platonic.


It is none of my business which of the sealings were dynastic and which were marriages. I would not be upset either direction. Marriages and marriage relations are between the people involved. I think everyone should just butt out of private lives.


Why is it not your business. You believe the man was a prophet. Don;t you think what he did has some bearing on whether he was or not?
_Runtu
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Re: Two more bite the dust!

Post by _Runtu »

Jason Bourne wrote:Why is it not your business. You believe the man was a prophet. Don;t you think what he did has some bearing on whether he was or not?


That's just it, Jason. Nothing Joseph Smith ever did or could have done has any bearing on his prophetic calling, at least not for people who know.

The shame of Mormonism is that it convinces otherwise rational people that they do not have to think about certain things. Logic, integrity, morality, intelligence--these are things that simply don't apply to certain aspects of the true church.
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_Trevor
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Re: Two more bite the dust!

Post by _Trevor »

Runtu wrote:That's just it, Jason. Nothing Joseph Smith ever did or could have done has any bearing on his prophetic calling, at least not for people who know.


This is exactly how Brigham Young felt about Joseph's personal behavior. To him it simply did not matter.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Pokatator
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Post by _Pokatator »

charity wrote:People can do what they want, as long as they are of the age of consent, or capable of consent.


Is this how you raised your children?

charity wrote:So the FLDS can do what they want as consenting adults. As far as I know, if you aren't married to two people at the same time with county recognized marriage licenses, you can cohabit as much as you want. Iszn't that what we condone in our society now? People have mutliple sexual partners all the time.


So it's OK as long as you don't try to make it legal.

charity wrote:And as far as that goes, whatever happened with plural marriages in Nauvoo or even Utah, if the "marriages" were only performed in temples, then the government had no business meddling. I don't see men with mistresses today being hauled into court. Why not?


Religious freedom run amok! You can break the law as long as it is broken in the temple? Inside the temple OK, outside of the temple not OK! Temple marriages equal to men with mistresses, glad you said that not me. Charity you seem to have the morals of a Jack Rabbit.

charity wrote:I don't know that Jeff's broke that bigamy laws. He was tried for faciliatating sex with a minor, or something like that. Was he tried for bigamy?


And Joseph should have been tried on the same charges.

Pokatator: So two pairs of hands, multiple times meets your definition?

charity wrote:Yes. If God commands.


Why the "if", are you not sure?

Pokatator: I declare that there were many hands on the altar. In some cases it could be viewed as: a wife and a husband and Joseph's hands equal six hands, that's 3 pairs Charity and then this was done multiple times. I guess you can't understand how someone can view this as even sicker than what just plain polygamy is.

charity wrote:I don't think we know all that we need to to know. And I am willing to wait to know the real truth.


I think I know right from wrong enough to not take that chance. I thought you already knew the real truth. You don't seem to be so sure.

Pokatator: I think your logic on this issue and argument on the definition of marriage is about the lamest I have ever heard ever. Tag.

charity wrote:Maybe that's why we aren't both active members of the Church right now? We don't look at things in the same way? Who would have thought.

The understatement of the century. I am sure glad I don't see things the way you do, glad I don't have to compromise moral integrity to defend the indefensible.

Pokatator:
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

charity wrote:Why do think that this is only a commandment for deacons and bishops? If everybody was supposed to have only one wife, why not just say "Let every man be the husband of one wife."

OBVIOUSLY, because plural marriage was permissable for others. Duh.


Joseph was not considered equal to a Bishop? No bishops practiced polygamy? Polygamy was for everyone except deacons and bishops, do you ever think about your posts or even reread them before you click on "submit"?

Yeah, Duh was very appropriate.
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

This is old news -- the interesting one is Josephine Lyons; anyone know if there's been any conclusion about her?


I provided this link earlier:

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/DNA.htm

Ongoing research includes evaluation of Josephine Lyon (Sylvia Sessions Lyon) autosomal DNA. "Hundreds of DNA samples from male and female descendants of both Josephine Lyon and Joseph Smith have been collected and are being analyzed with the objective of identifying lineage-specific markers..." (Perego, Woodward, Journal of Mormon History, Vol 32, No.2 fn 39). Descendants of Josephine participating in this study have indicated the research is "promising" in confirming Josephine as a daughter of Joseph Smith. The researchers are also hoping to study the other possible children of Joseph Smith and welcome the involvement of descendants.
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