Origins of the institution of 'testimony' in the CoJCoLDS

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_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Coggins7 wrote:Well, at least Harmony and Trevor have made it clear that serious philosophical rumination isn't there cup of Sleepy Time (and also made it clear yet again that any kind of intellectual depth causes a kind of cognitive sluggishness similar to what a computer undergoes when it hasn't been defragmented for several years).


Coggins, when you have something pertinent to add to the thread, instead of your own blustering, pseudo-intellectual claptrap, then maybe people will take you seriously. All I see here is you baiting people to engage in a conversation on your terms, rather than according to the subject of the discussion taking place.

Nobody likes a blowhard.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Just admit you can't answer the question, Loran. Goodnightshirt, but you are testy.[/quote]

What question Harmony? nobody's asked a serious question of me, relative to my points here, as of yet.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Coggins, when you have something pertinent to add to the thread, instead of your own blustering, pseudo-intellectual claptrap, then maybe people will take you seriously. All I see here is you baiting people to engage in a conversation on your terms, rather than according to the subject of the discussion taking place.

Nobody likes a blowhard.



Unfortunately, the attempt to perceive the nature of the Restored Church through a strictly naturalistic filter is doomed to the most inexorable failure. Our perception of the world is, as always, conditioned by the perceptual filters,or perceptual transducers (theoretical, paradigmatic, socio-cultural/intellectual templates) through which we perceive it. Assuming a purely sociological and anthropological origin of the Church will, of course, provide one with precisely that; the evidence will accumulate in that direction. Historical and Anthropological studies are indeed among those subjects in the humanities and social sciences that, by their very nature, are relatively data poor and of necessity theory, speculation, and wishful thinking rich. If the Church is more than an anthropological or sociological phenomena, then neither Anthropology or Sociology are competent to discern and comprehend those elements. But how does the philosophical naturalist and materialist know, through a strictly naturalistic perceptual filter, where the purely sociological ends and the spiritual begins (and let us assume, at least provisionally, that the spiritual may exist)?

If the preassumption is that no spiritual realities exist a priori, then is it not the case that this is precisely where the perceptual range of the filter ends?

In other words, the limit of your intellectual paradigm is the limit of your perception, and the limit of your perception defines the boundary of your mental and cognitive world; the boundary of both critical thought and imagination.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Coggins7 wrote:
Unfortunately, the attempt to perceive the nature of the Restored Church through a strictly naturalistic filter is doomed to the most inexorable failure. Our perception of the world is, as always, conditioned by the perceptual filters,or perceptual transducers (theoretical, paradigmatic, socio-cultural/intellectual templates) through which we perceive it. Assuming a purely sociological and anthropological origin of the Church will, of course, provide one with precisely that; the evidence will accumulate in that direction.


You do realize, don't you, that the same can be said for the attempt to see the "restored church" through a purely "spiritual" filter. All we have are stimuli and perceptions, and those are filtered through our expectations. You expect spiritual explanations, and you get them.

Historical and Anthropological studies are indeed among those subjects in the humanities and social sciences that, by their very nature, are relatively data poor and of necessity theory, speculation, and wishful thinking rich.


Have you read Hayden White's Metahistory? You might like it.

If the Church is more than an anthropological or sociological phenomena, then neither Anthropology or Sociology are competent to discern and comprehend those elements. But how does the philosophical naturalist and materialist know, through a strictly naturalistic perceptual filter, where the purely sociological ends and the spiritual begins (and let us assume, at least provisionally, that the spiritual may exist)?


But here's the problem. Anthropology and sociology may involve speculation, but they can be quantified and interpreted. The spiritual is by nature completely subjective and unapproachable through reason or science. The same cannot be said for the social sciences.

If the preassumption is that no spiritual realities exist a priori, then is it not the case that this is precisely where the perceptual range of the filter ends?


And you seem to be limiting your perceptual range to the spiritual. What's the difference?

In other words, the limit of your intellectual paradigm is the limit of your perception, and the limit of your perception defines the boundary of your mental and cognitive world; the boundary of both critical thought and imagination.


That's a truism. But what you seem to fail to recognize is just how limiting your paradigm is. You simply cannot allow for a naturalistic explanation of Mormonism. In the end, that's no less a handicap than rejecting a priori the existence of the spiritual, which many of us do not do in the first place.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Coggins7 wrote:What question Harmony? nobody's asked a serious question of me, relative to my points here, as of yet.


The question about when Fast and Testimony meetings were first started? Since that's a subject pertinent to the thread, and since everything you've posted so far has nothing to do with the subject of the thread, I don't expect you to answer it.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Coggins7 wrote:


Unfortunately, the attempt to perceive the nature of the Restored Church through a strictly naturalistic filter is doomed to the most inexorable failure. Our perception of the world is, as always, conditioned by the perceptual filters,or perceptual transducers (theoretical, paradigmatic, socio-cultural/intellectual templates) through which we perceive it. Assuming a purely sociological and anthropological origin of the Church will, of course, provide one with precisely that; the evidence will accumulate in that direction.



You do realize, don't you, that the same can be said for the attempt to see the "restored church" through a purely "spiritual" filter. All we have are stimuli and perceptions, and those are filtered through our expectations. You expect spiritual explanations, and you get them.



But Mormons don't attempt to see their Church through a "purely" spiritual filter. That's the rub and that's where secularists are trapped within their own Bolero Shield. We have always understood the Gospel to be adapted to the needs and cultural conditions of the times and places in which it has been revealed. Revelation is understood to come, in most cases, in the language, symbolism, and adapted to the sociological conditions of the peoples to whom it comes.

Therefore, a prophet can receive revelation, mix this with his own language and idiom, couch it in symbolism and archetypes familiar to his cultural milieu, and it can still be revelation, still be Gospel truth, and still be binding on humans to accept. The Gospel exists within and works through culture. No one is denying this. The only culture in which the Gospel cannot work is the culture of Babylon; the culture of Satan that is wholly hostile to it. Babylon, spiritually speaking, exists in all cultures, to one degree or another, but human culture of any sort is not in itself hostile to the Gospel nor need it be thought of as compartmentalized from it.

The testimony, or pure and certain knowledge of the Gospel's truth is a spiritual phenomena that supersedes earthy phenomena its true, but keep in mind that, according to LDS theology, to the Lord, all things are spiritual. This implies that "all things", including all earthly, temporal, mortal phenomena, are also spiritual phenomena, and this implies then that all phenomena are, in essence, spiritual phenomena at different levels of manifestation, such as the teaching that the physical elements of the earth and of which we are created are a form of spirit matter, but of a grosser, denser nature than the higher, more refined matter which composes the bodies of pure spirits or gods.

It would be more appropriate to say that LDS see the world through a spiritual filter and that this filter, since all things are various forms or manifestations of spiritual phenomena, is much more like a 'room with a view" for the Saint then the the well that contains the frogs bound to a strictly naturalistic world view.

I'm going through all this because your criticism above could only lead to epistemological relativism. The secularist sees only secular explanations and the Mormon only spiritual. Ultimately, no knowledge is possible either way. But this dichotomy is a false one. The perceptual filter of the Gospel and the Spirit allows a panoramic view of the universe (as over against the fundamentally tightly focused, limited, and peripheral views available to human beings through science and scholarly analysis) and this differentiates it substantially from the secular, in which the perceptual filters are severely and finally delimited by their own methodologies, expectations, and assumptions. If the Gospel teaches us anything, it is not to assume anything, but let the Spirit lead and teach us as we are ready to accept light and intelligence. This is why we must become as "little children" symbolically; we must be humble, teachable, and accepting of phenomena we may not have thought possible or never imagined given an otherwise narrow, parochial secularist viewpoint.


But here's the problem. Anthropology and sociology may involve speculation, but they can be quantified and interpreted. The spiritual is by nature completely subjective and unapproachable through reason or science. The same cannot be said for the social sciences.


I don't see how this helps your case. Quantifying the kind of deeply qualitative, fragmentary, and ambiguous data that make up the bulk of what is actually studied in disciplines such as Anthropology and Sociology, while better than free flowing wishful thinking, doesn't necessarily lead us closer to the truth, and indeed, as it has many times in the past, led us away from it. Quantification is also dependent upon the quality of the collection, interpretation, and categorization of data, all of which, in the social sciences we are discussing, are fraught with human subjectivities and bias.

The statement "The spiritual is by nature completely subjective" is a naked assertion. Upon what basis do you make this claim? If I were to see Jesus Christ, and he were to reach out and touch me, that would be a perfectly empirical phenomena by any definition.

Upon what basis need spiritual phenomena be approachable by human science at its present level of development? Upon what basis is this made a requirement for the acceptance of the phemonena claimed to exist by the Gospel?


And you seem to be limiting your perceptual range to the spiritual. What's the difference?


The difference is precisely this, I am not limiting my perceptual range to the spiritual; indeed, I accept science, logic, critical reason, and rational analysis as important human perceptual tools. However, I accept them only as tools in which inhere severe limitations and conditions, beyond which perception is not possible. The spiritual view "takes up the slack" here, so to speak, and allows us to perceive things beyond what is available through those other perceptual tools but never abandons those tools themselves. The Gospel simply places those other perceptual tools within a greater, panoramic frame of reference within a larger perceptual field. It is the secular naturalist,or humanist and only he who is perceptually limited, not the follower of the Gospel (unless he rejects the other kinds or perception, which the Gospel does not teach him to do and for which there is no necessity).

Quote:
In other words, the limit of your intellectual paradigm is the limit of your perception, and the limit of your perception defines the boundary of your mental and cognitive world; the boundary of both critical thought and imagination.



That's a truism. But what you seem to fail to recognize is just how limiting your paradigm is. You simply cannot allow for a naturalistic explanation of Mormonism. In the end, that's no less a handicap than rejecting a priori the existence of the spiritual, which many of us do not do in the first place.


If I reject the naturalistic in favor of the panoramic, and I'm wrong, I lose nothing, as the panoramic view allows me to immerse myself in the naturalistic to my heart's content, so long as the larger view does not become opaque to me in so doing. If, on the other hand, I reject the possibility of the panoramic for the microscopic, I lose the panoramic, and I cannot, from that limited frame of reference, immerse myself in the panoramic as I can the naturalistic and microscopic from the panoramic point of view. I cannot do this because the highly focused, concentration on naturalistic phenomena and empirical verification demanded by science by definition limits my field of vision to precisely and only those things upon which I am focused and the methodology necessary to perceive it in an accurate way.

In other words, the soaring Eagle does not understand everything he sees, but he sees. The frog in the well may see the sides of the well and other objects in the well around him very clearly, but the world outside the well is closed to him utterly.

The Eagle, at least, has the opportunity to fly down and take a closer look at things. The frog won't even try to climb or jump out of the well to take a look at the moon, because he will tell you that the moon doesn't exist. How does he know that? Well, none of the other frogs in the well have seen it, and no frog scientists have ever seen it, There's no empirical evidence that it exists, and as we all know, that which is not approachable by science does not exist. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

The Eagle knows better.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Coggins7 wrote:But Mormons don't attempt to see their Church through a "purely" spiritual filter. That's the rub and that's where secularists are trapped within their own Bolero Shield. We have always understood the Gospel to be adapted to the needs and cultural conditions of the times and places in which it has been revealed. Revelation is understood to come, in most cases, in the language, symbolism, and adapted to the sociological conditions of the peoples to whom it comes.


I don't see how secularists are trapped on their own "Bolero Shield" here. Because ad hoc adjustments in Mormon revelation keep things au currant?
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Coggins7 wrote:

But Mormons don't attempt to see their Church through a "purely" spiritual filter.


You do if you reject a naturalistic view.

That's the rub and that's where secularists are trapped within their own Bolero Shield. We have always understood the Gospel to be adapted to the needs and cultural conditions of the times and places in which it has been revealed. Revelation is understood to come, in most cases, in the language, symbolism, and adapted to the sociological conditions of the peoples to whom it comes.


What about us nonsecularists?

Therefore, a prophet can receive revelation, mix this with his own language and idiom, couch it in symbolism and archetypes familiar to his cultural milieu, and it can still be revelation, still be Gospel truth, and still be binding on humans to accept. The Gospel exists within and works through culture. No one is denying this. The only culture in which the Gospel cannot work is the culture of Babylon; the culture of Satan that is wholly hostile to it. Babylon, spiritually speaking, exists in all cultures, to one degree or another, but human culture of any sort is not in itself hostile to the Gospel nor need it be thought of as compartmentalized from it.


Of course it exists within a cultural context. What does that have to do with anything I said?

The testimony, or pure and certain knowledge of the Gospel's truth is a spiritual phenomena that supersedes earthy phenomena its true, but keep in mind that, according to LDS theology, to the Lord, all things are spiritual. This implies that "all things", including all earthly, temporal, mortal phenomena, are also spiritual phenomena, and this implies then that all phenomena are, in essence, spiritual phenomena at different levels of manifestation, such as the teaching that the physical elements of the earth and of which we are created are a form of spirit matter, but of a grosser, denser nature than the higher, more refined matter which composes the bodies of pure spirits or gods.


Appealing to an LDS teaching to prove a point to someone who does not accept LDS teachings is kind of pointless.

It would be more appropriate to say that LDS see the world through a spiritual filter and that this filter, since all things are various forms or manifestations of spiritual phenomena, is much more like a 'room with a view" for the Saint then the the well that contains the frogs bound to a strictly naturalistic world view.


And I disagree. The view I see is one that denies anything that does not conform to the spiritual witness. And that, my friend, is not an expansive view at all.

I'm going through all this because your criticism above could only lead to epistemological relativism. The secularist sees only secular explanations and the Mormon only spiritual. Ultimately, no knowledge is possible either way.


Yes, this would be the point of postmodernism. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Juliann, k?

But this dichotomy is a false one.


Except that's not a dichotomy. If you accept your premise, and I do, no true knowledge is possible.

The perceptual filter of the Gospel and the Spirit allows a panoramic view of the universe (as over against the fundamentally tightly focused, limited, and peripheral views available to human beings through science and scholarly analysis) and this differentiates it substantially from the secular, in which the perceptual filters are severely and finally delimited by their own methodologies, expectations, and assumptions. If the Gospel teaches us anything, it is not to assume anything, but let the Spirit lead and teach us as we are ready to accept light and intelligence. This is why we must become as "little children" symbolically; we must be humble, teachable, and accepting of phenomena we may not have thought possible or never imagined given an otherwise narrow, parochial secularist viewpoint.


Oddly enough, I agree with you here. Humility is a good thing, and for people like you and me who believe in God, we need to be willing to go where He leads us. It's not my fault he led me out of your church.

I don't see how this helps your case. Quantifying the kind of deeply qualitative, fragmentary, and ambiguous data that make up the bulk of what is actually studied in disciplines such as Anthropology and Sociology, while better than free flowing wishful thinking, doesn't necessarily lead us closer to the truth, and indeed, as it has many times in the past, led us away from it. Quantification is also dependent upon the quality of the collection, interpretation, and categorization of data, all of which, in the social sciences we are discussing, are fraught with human subjectivities and bias.


Have you ever studied anthropology or sociology? It's not exactly a bunch of wishful thinking and guessing.

The statement "The spiritual is by nature completely subjective" is a naked assertion. Upon what basis do you make this claim? If I were to see Jesus Christ, and he were to reach out and touch me, that would be a perfectly empirical phenomena by any definition.


If you saw and touched Jesus, it wouldn't be spiritual, would it? Either way, it's not repeatable, and hence is subjective.

Upon what basis need spiritual phenomena be approachable by human science at its present level of development? Upon what basis is this made a requirement for the acceptance of the phemonena claimed to exist by the Gospel?


It's not a requirement at all, but you have to put it into context. You seem to believe, as do many, that the spiritual Trump's everything else.

The difference is precisely this, I am not limiting my perceptual range to the spiritual; indeed, I accept science, logic, critical reason, and rational analysis as important human perceptual tools. However, I accept them only as tools in which inhere severe limitations and conditions, beyond which perception is not possible. The spiritual view "takes up the slack" here, so to speak, and allows us to perceive things beyond what is available through those other perceptual tools but never abandons those tools themselves. The Gospel simply places those other perceptual tools within a greater, panoramic frame of reference within a larger perceptual field. It is the secular naturalist,or humanist and only he who is perceptually limited, not the follower of the Gospel (unless he rejects the other kinds or perception, which the Gospel does not teach him to do and for which there is no necessity).


In other words, you see severe limitations in the rational and scientific, but you see none in the spiritual.

If I reject the naturalistic in favor of the panoramic, and I'm wrong, I lose nothing, as the panoramic view allows me to immerse myself in the naturalistic to my heart's content, so long as the larger view does not become opaque to me in so doing. If, on the other hand, I reject the possibility of the panoramic for the microscopic, I lose the panoramic, and I cannot, from that limited frame of reference, immerse myself in the panoramic as I can the naturalistic and microscopic from the panoramic point of view. I cannot do this because the highly focused, concentration on naturalistic phenomena and empirical verification demanded by science by definition limits my field of vision to precisely and only those things upon which I am focused and the methodology necessary to perceive it in an accurate way.


As an aside, might I say that it's quite humorous to hear you refer to science as some pathetic subset of the panoramic, embodied by the LDS church.

In other words, the soaring Eagle does not understand everything he sees, but he sees. The frog in the well may see the sides of the well and other objects in the well around him very clearly, but the world outside the well is closed to him utterly.


What happens when the panoramic is wrong?

The Eagle, at least, has the opportunity to fly down and take a closer look at things. The frog won't even try to climb or jump out of the well to take a look at the moon, because he will tell you that the moon doesn't exist. How does he know that? Well, none of the other frogs in the well have seen it, and no frog scientists have ever seen it, There's no empirical evidence that it exists, and as we all know, that which is not approachable by science does not exist. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

The Eagle knows better.


It sounds like the Eagle has no introspection, no questioning of his own perception. Seems pretty dangerous to me.
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_BishopRic
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Post by _BishopRic »

Coggins7 wrote:
I like the subject of "testimony," and think it will become even more emphasized in Mormonism as further scientific evidence reveals more challenges for the member to believe the historical claims of Joseph. Timely, since the "Lamanite" issue could be one of those problems developing as we speak.



Well, there's not a great deal of scientific evidence to go around on this score such that members have anything to worry about. Plenty of thorny hypotheticals and theoretical issues, but no facts to worry about.
.[/quote]

Hmm, first, I just finished reading today's posts here...kinda makes me laugh a bit. I'm not interested in the vitriolic posts so many apologists on the MAD board bait us with. My position is that if you have to stoop to that, you're not interested in a dialogue -- you're out for a war of words. It's not "who's right," but "who sounds like he's right?!" Not interested.

Next, are you serious about "facts?!" Defending the culture that depends on "the spirit told me" type of answers to the challenging issues? I get that everyday in my medical practice..."I know if I take this herb, my cataract will go away..." No facts, just feelings. I've yet to see it work, by the way.

And "theoretical issues?" That's all I hear when a TBM attempts to explain away the obvious conclusions an unbiased observer sees when analyzing the slam dunk evidence against Joseph's Myth. Nibley's strategy to take the simple and complicate it so nobody can follow his response has many takers, it seems. The LDS majority read the apologetic mush and say to themselves "I don't understand what was said, but it MUST be right, cause it's really deep!"

So, another thought. I agree that "gaining a testimony" is quite unique to Mormonism in my experience of religions. Perhaps a reason for that is the emphasis on the superiority of "spiritual witness" over "man's logic." If a person can have a "witness" of something being true, then it takes an enormous amount of logic and reason to change his mind. Maybe Joseph understood this, to a degree, and in his rapid-fire quest to build a religion, he found that "facilitating" a spiritual witness was quite successful in gaining converts.

At the Sunstone Symposium recently, Dr. Robert Beckstead presented a theory on Joseph's intentional inducement of visionary experiences by the use of "entheogens" (hallucinogenic substances in a religious setting)) He gave a compelling (in my opinion) argument that Joseph not only had access to effective hallucinogenics, but he also had relationships with various "Shamans and Medicine Men" who taught him how to induce visions and other spiritual experiences. An interesting read:


By your own admission here Bishoric, Dr. Beclstead has not a particle of documentary historical evidence to back up is bare assertions.


First, don't try to back me into a corner with "you said it was true" kind of BS. I said it was compelling, and an interesting read. In my mind, much more compelling than the claims that angels appeared.

"In the very first conference of the church in June 1830 in Fayette, New York, Joseph Smith recorded '...we partook together of the emblems of the body and blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...had the heavens opened to their view, (and beheld Jesus Christ).

Heavenly manifestations occurred in a March 18th 1833 sacrament meeting held in Kirtland Ohio under the direction of Joseph Smith.

"Bro Joseph... promised that the pure in heart that were present should see a heavenly vision...after which the bread and wine was distributed by Bro Joseph after which many of the brethren saw a heavenly vision of the savior and concourses of angels..."


The emblems used here are, of course, common bread and wine (and later, water). There isn't a scintilla of evidence for the use of any hallucinogenic drugs. If so, where is it? [/quote]

I guess you didn't read the link. I'll just post a small part:

"Is there evidence to suggest that Joseph Smith gifted new converts with visionary experience by adding a visionary
plant such as Datura to sacramental wine? According to LaMar Petersen in his 1975 book, Hearts Made Glad the
answer is probably yes.27 Petersen noted a correlation in early Mormonism between the ingestion of sacramental wine
and visionary experience."

If interested, read the links...but I will tell you the descriptions given of visions is VERY similar to what people say of their use of modern hallucinogens. I worked for a time as a substance abuse counselor...and I heard these descriptions everyday. Is it proof? Of course not. But it is more convincing than, say, the "proof" that the Book of Abraham is inspired because maybe three of the four "Gods" under Abraham are similar to some other (out of 3200 possibilities) names of Egyptian Gods. Now THAT'S a stretch!

having apparently come to the conclusion that they were used by the early Saints in spite of not a particle of historical evidence to support this claim.


Again, I have not come to that "conclusion." I don't feel the need to "know" anything here...that approach backs me into a corner of having to defend the position. I said it was compelling...and interesting.

But, you "know" they did, is that right?


No. Got it yet?

The physiology of fasting argument is, to be frank, quite lame Bishopric, as fasting in the LDS church never, ever approximates in length or severity the kind that would be needed to provoke hallucinatory experiences.


I think this makes the point that it is feasible that Joe might have been inclined to use the drugs...fasting alone generally does not yield the kind of visions that were described in his experiences. Then, the colorful visions stopped with his death.
Today's descriptions of "spiritual witness" are not the sort that the members described in Joe's time, and yes, fasting does seem to facilitate such "feelings."

Point is, the evidence is compelling to me. I have no need to "know" that it's true...or that it is false. It's of no consequence to my life today.
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Post by _Tori »

BishopRic wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:
I like the subject of "testimony," and think it will become even more emphasized in Mormonism as further scientific evidence reveals more challenges for the member to believe the historical claims of Joseph. Timely, since the "Lamanite" issue could be one of those problems developing as we speak.



Well, there's not a great deal of scientific evidence to go around on this score such that members have anything to worry about. Plenty of thorny hypotheticals and theoretical issues, but no facts to worry about.
.


Hmm, first, I just finished reading today's posts here...kinda makes me laugh a bit. I'm not interested in the vitriolic posts so many apologists on the MAD board bait us with. My position is that if you have to stoop to that, you're not interested in a dialogue -- you're out for a war of words. It's not "who's right," but "who sounds like he's right?!" Not interested.

Next, are you serious about "facts?!" Defending the culture that depends on "the spirit told me" type of answers to the challenging issues? I get that everyday in my medical practice..."I know if I take this herb, my cataract will go away..." No facts, just feelings. I've yet to see it work, by the way.

And "theoretical issues?" That's all I hear when a TBM attempts to explain away the obvious conclusions an unbiased observer sees when analyzing the slam dunk evidence against Joseph's Myth. Nibley's strategy to take the simple and complicate it so nobody can follow his response has many takers, it seems. The LDS majority read the apologetic mush and say to themselves "I don't understand what was said, but it MUST be right, cause it's really deep!"

So, another thought. I agree that "gaining a testimony" is quite unique to Mormonism in my experience of religions. Perhaps a reason for that is the emphasis on the superiority of "spiritual witness" over "man's logic." If a person can have a "witness" of something being true, then it takes an enormous amount of logic and reason to change his mind. Maybe Joseph understood this, to a degree, and in his rapid-fire quest to build a religion, he found that "facilitating" a spiritual witness was quite successful in gaining converts.

At the Sunstone Symposium recently, Dr. Robert Beckstead presented a theory on Joseph's intentional inducement of visionary experiences by the use of "entheogens" (hallucinogenic substances in a religious setting)) He gave a compelling (in my opinion) argument that Joseph not only had access to effective hallucinogenics, but he also had relationships with various "Shamans and Medicine Men" who taught him how to induce visions and other spiritual experiences. An interesting read:


By your own admission here Bishoric, Dr. Beclstead has not a particle of documentary historical evidence to back up is bare assertions.


First, don't try to back me into a corner with "you said it was true" kind of BS. I said it was compelling, and an interesting read. In my mind, much more compelling than the claims that angels appeared.

"In the very first conference of the church in June 1830 in Fayette, New York, Joseph Smith recorded '...we partook together of the emblems of the body and blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...had the heavens opened to their view, (and beheld Jesus Christ).

Heavenly manifestations occurred in a March 18th 1833 sacrament meeting held in Kirtland Ohio under the direction of Joseph Smith.

"Bro Joseph... promised that the pure in heart that were present should see a heavenly vision...after which the bread and wine was distributed by Bro Joseph after which many of the brethren saw a heavenly vision of the savior and concourses of angels..."


The emblems used here are, of course, common bread and wine (and later, water). There isn't a scintilla of evidence for the use of any hallucinogenic drugs. If so, where is it? [/quote]

I guess you didn't read the link. I'll just post a small part:

"Is there evidence to suggest that Joseph Smith gifted new converts with visionary experience by adding a visionary
plant such as Datura to sacramental wine? According to LaMar Petersen in his 1975 book, Hearts Made Glad the
answer is probably yes.27 Petersen noted a correlation in early Mormonism between the ingestion of sacramental wine
and visionary experience."

If interested, read the links...but I will tell you the descriptions given of visions is VERY similar to what people say of their use of modern hallucinogens. I worked for a time as a substance abuse counselor...and I heard these descriptions everyday. Is it proof? Of course not. But it is more convincing than, say, the "proof" that the Book of Abraham is inspired because maybe three of the four "Gods" under Abraham are similar to some other (out of 3200 possibilities) names of Egyptian Gods. Now THAT'S a stretch!

having apparently come to the conclusion that they were used by the early Saints in spite of not a particle of historical evidence to support this claim.


Again, I have not come to that "conclusion." I don't feel the need to "know" anything here...that approach backs me into a corner of having to defend the position. I said it was compelling...and interesting.

But, you "know" they did, is that right?


No. Got it yet?

The physiology of fasting argument is, to be frank, quite lame Bishopric, as fasting in the LDS church never, ever approximates in length or severity the kind that would be needed to provoke hallucinatory experiences.


I think this makes the point that it is feasible that Joe might have been inclined to use the drugs...fasting alone generally does not yield the kind of visions that were described in his experiences. Then, the colorful visions stopped with his death.
Today's descriptions of "spiritual witness" are not the sort that the members described in Joe's time, and yes, fasting does seem to facilitate such "feelings."

Point is, the evidence is compelling to me. I have no need to "know" that it's true...or that it is false. It's of no consequence to my life today.[/quote]

Wow, BishopRic!!!! Good post....I like it! Image
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who cold not hear the music. ----Nietzche
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