what's in the Church's vault:

[_harmony]

Tater! Come back! ACK!

[_Pokatator]

I want to apologize to Dr. Shades. You are not any part of this problem. I am the problem. I am not going to go anywhere, I over reacted. Bond contacted me personally and I am grateful, he's a neat man and very understanding.

Basically, I have some health problems to work out and I am going to take a couple of days as a break. In a nutshell I have a rare adrenal gland disease that gives me severe migraines, depression, muscles aches, and keeps me from sleeping when I get out of balance. I don't do this very often now days but I have gotten out of balance and I haven't been myself for the last couple of days. I will get some rest and I'll be back. I'm an old man compared to all you youngsters. I'll get rid of this migraine and see you kids in a day or so.

Bless you guys, you all teach me so much, Pokatator

[_moksha]

Hey Pokie, hope you get feeling better. We youngsters will be here to welcome you back!

[_gramps]

I want to apologize to Dr. Shades. You are not any part of this problem. I am the problem. I am not going to go anywhere, I over reacted. Bond contacted me personally and I am grateful, he's a neat man and very understanding.

Basically, I have some health problems to work out and I am going to take a couple of days as a break. In a nutshell I have a rare adrenal gland disease that gives me severe migraines, depression, muscles aches, and keeps me from sleeping when I get out of balance. I don't do this very often now days but I have gotten out of balance and I haven't been myself for the last couple of days. I will get some rest and I'll be back. I'm an old man compared to all you youngsters. I'll get rid of this migraine and see you kids in a day or so.

Bless you guys, you all teach me so much, Pokatator

We old guys need to stick together. Don't leave me alone here with all these young 'uns, tator.

Hope you feel better soon!

[_charity]

Charity---let's not forget that it was you who suggested that the Church would have "destroyed" damning documents. Quite an odd suggestion from one who believes that the Church is such a "moral" and "honest" institution, eh?

Here is where I have to really fight not to be snide. But I am gritting my teeth. I did not suggest the Church had destroyed anything.

Actually, you did. Or rather, you suggested that it would be more likely that that Church would "destroy" damning documents rather than keep them sealed up in F Vault.

I was just trying to cool the jets of the conspiricists who think there is something really horrible, terrible, damning, etc. in the vault. They should think, instead, that IF there had been anything really bad that the Church would have destroyed it. Then they could cluck their tongues over how awful it was that the Church would destroy stuff.

Well, we *do* know that the Church "destroys"/ "revises" stuff, as was the case with the infamous Elder Poehlman talk.

That is a much more logical position to take. But it still does not rise to any level of proof of anything above the "for all we know" level.

I'm afraid I don't see how/why that position is any more logical, and frankly, I am quite stunned that a TBM such as yourself would endorse it.

*Big sigh.* Is there something about anti-Mormons, or critics at any rate, that makes them unable to read the word IF? I will try to express myself without using the word "if." I don't believe there is any incriminating evidence of anything in the Church vaults. But why would anyone who believes there is, think it would still be around? I am just asking for people to be practical.

And since the Church isn't going to come out looking good in your estimation, why not just eliminate one step and go right to the outrage over destroying stuff?

[_harmony]

*Big sigh.* Is there something about anti-Mormons, or critics at any rate, that makes them unable to read the word IF? I will try to express myself without using the word "if." I don't believe there is any incriminating evidence of anything in the Church vaults. But why would anyone who believes there is, think it would still be around? I am just asking for people to be practical.

And since the Church isn't going to come out looking good in your estimation, why not just eliminate one step and go right to the outrage over destroying stuff?

The only thing I want to see isn't kept in the vault. They're kept a closely guarded secret though. OPEN THE BOOKS!

[_Dr. Shades]

I don't believe there is any incriminating evidence of anything in the Church vaults. But why would anyone who believes there is, think it would still be around? I am just asking for people to be practical.

That's a reasonable assumption.

But, I strongly believe the maxims revealed in the books Brave New World and 1984: The Elite always reserve for themselves the right to know the real story, the truth about what's really going on and how it all really came about.

Likewise, the LDS heirarchy keeps the incriminating stuff around not for the benefit of the lay membership, but for itself.

[_the road to hana]

I don't believe there is any incriminating evidence of anything in the Church vaults. But why would anyone who believes there is, think it would still be around? I am just asking for people to be practical.

Where would it go, the Danite shredder?

"Incriminating" might not be the right word here. "Embarrassing" or "problematic" might be better words. Charity, do you think the church was only interested in purchasing the Salamander Letter in order to destroy it? They certainly engaged in a lot of publicity in the process. They really wanted the personal papers of Leonard Arrington and didn't want them to go to USU. They might limit access to any number of things, but destroying them is doubtful.

[_karl61]

I don't believe there is any incriminating evidence of anything in the Church vaults. But why would anyone who believes there is, think it would still be around? I am just asking for people to be practical.

Where would it go, the Danite shredder?

"Incriminating" might not be the right word here. "Embarrassing" or "problematic" might be better words. Charity, do you think the church was only interested in purchasing the Salamander Letter in order to destroy it? They certainly engaged in a lot of publicity in the process. They really wanted the personal papers of Leonard Arrington and didn't want them to go to USU. They might limit access to any number of things, but destroying them is doubtful.

I wonder if tithing money went to purchase the Salamander Letter. The ghost of Martin Harris likely would smile when finding out how much a letter, thought to be written by himself, would go for a century and a half later.

[_Mister Scratch]

*Big sigh.* Is there something about anti-Mormons, or critics at any rate, that makes them unable to read the word IF? I will try to express myself without using the word "if." I don't believe there is any incriminating evidence of anything in the Church vaults.

Who cares what you "believe"? I am interested in the facts, and in what those facts tell us in terms of likelihood. For example, it is a FACT that Joseph Smith mandated that the Church keep good records, and that burning embarrassing historical documents would be in violation of this prophetic order. It is a FACT that the Church keeps a lot of secrets. It is a FACT that the Church "purchased" the Salamander Letter, among other documents, and then tried to conceal them.

The facts here, my dear Charity, do not suggest that the Church would "destroy" the incriminating evidence, as you have repeatedly suggested, or have insisted is somehow more "practical."

But why would anyone who believes there is, think it would still be around?

I have already explained why. Multiple times.

I am just asking for people to be practical.

Who, the Church? The Church operates according to principles of faith, not practicality.

And since the Church isn't going to come out looking good in your estimation, why not just eliminate one step and go right to the outrage over destroying stuff?

Because the Church would look very good in my eyes if it was more open and forthcoming. This apparent need for endless secrecy only looks bad, imho.