BYU Daily Universe reacts to Book of Mormon word change ...

[_Polygamy Porter]

What do you guys believe in?

Facts, truth, and measured and observed quantities.

And you believe in what? MAGIC.

[_why me]

I agree with your assessment, Rollo.

I thought I'd quote one particular paragraph that struck me as particularly ridiculous.

Ironically, these scientific critics allow much larger degree of tolerance to their own profession than they do to the realm of faith. When science admits it was wrong, it is seen as progress. When a religion modifies a statement in the slightest degree, it is seen as being an imposter. When believers accept the change, they are guilty of doublethink. When intellectuals accept science’s changes, they are on the cutting edge of knowledge.

They seem to completely miss the point. Scientists understand and acknowledge that they are converging toward truth based on hypotheses put forth from the minds of human beings who admit not to having the absolute truth. The LDS church leaders, on the other hand, have always been in the business of reminding us that this particular church is a church of revelation from God. They aren't just making this up as they go along, as scientists methodically do; they are getting their Truths from God.

When the LDS church has to make changes like this, it just reinforces what the critics have known this whole time, which is that the LDS church isn't getting their Truth from God after all - that human beings are making it up as they go along.

Science will never prove the Book of Mormon true but it will also never prove it false. Where would you be Seth if DNA confirmed hebrew blood in the native american? I think that you would be playing 'Sing along with Mitch' in Sacrament Meeting. Right?

[_Runtu]

Science will never prove the Book of Mormon true but it will also never prove it false. Where would you be Seth if DNA confirmed hebrew blood in the native american? I think that you would be playing 'Sing along with Mitch' in Sacrament Meeting. Right?

Yeah, yeah. Speculation. No proof. We got it the first 412 times. ;)

[_Sethbag]

What do you guys believe in?

I'm agnostic. I believe that the Mormon prophets are fallible human beings who speak their opinions over the pulpit, basically what the apologists believe. I also believe knowledge within Mormonism comes the same way as it does in other organizations. That is, the men at the top meet regularly and make decisions that are in the best interests for the survival and growth of the organization.

I didn't mean in regards to Mormonism. What else interests you?

Well, I like playing games on the computer. My current game is Aces High II, which is a World War II combat flight simulator. I have a good CH Pro joystick, external throttle, and rudder pedals. My in-game name is, (drum roll.....) Sethbag. I'm getting OK.

I also am an amateur photographer. I use a Nikon D200 and four or five lenses, and two flashes.

I'm into amateur luthiery as well. I've made two violins from scratch, including making the varnish that I used on them. I've started a cello for my daughter. I'm going to order a book for Christmas this year on making electric guitars, because I'd really like to make one at some point. Maybe I'll make an electric bass too.

I like guns, but since moving out to Arizona I have hardly gone shooting at all. I suppose if I had people to go with, and a place to do it at, I'd probably do it more often.

I like reading the news on the web. I like listening to Prime Minister's Questions over the web. I like watching British films, like the period stuff like Sense and Sensibility, Pride and Prejudice, Our Mutual Friend, Wives and Daughters (it's not gay like you'd think, it's actually pretty good), Foyle's War, and others.

I hardly watch TV, since I spend most of my time on the computer or making a violin or something.

Anyhow, that's pretty much it.

[_Sethbag]

Science will never prove the Book of Mormon true but it will also never prove it false. Where would you be Seth if DNA confirmed hebrew blood in the native american? I think that you would be playing 'Sing along with Mitch' in Sacrament Meeting. Right?

I'll answer your question if you answer mine. What if Egyptologists translated the papyrus scroll used to produce the Book of Abraham and found that it actually turned out to be something else, like, say, a pagan religious funerary spell book?

[Guest]

Truth by it's very nature, is what it is. It does not change. It is an absolute. It excuses not itself:

A truth must be right the first time - otherwise there is no viability.

If there are additional truths discovered/revealed, they will compliment the truths that exist. Absolutely.

Now for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, truth is not absolute, it is changing, truth has rebelled against its very nature and has been diluted to the point of impotency - a non-truth.

Their standard of truth has been corrupted.

Truth has only one shot at being true, otherwise it's either science, conjecture (or Mormonism)

[_guy sajer]

"Ironically, these scientific critics allow much larger degree of tolerance to their own profession than they do to the realm of faith. When science admits it was wrong, it is seen as progress. When a religion modifies a statement in the slightest degree, it is seen as being an imposter. When believers accept the change, they are guilty of doublethink. When intellectuals accept science’s changes, they are on the cutting edge of knowledge."

It's really embarrassing for a university student to make comments like this. Such a profound lack of understanding of how science operates! It rivals bcspace in ignorance. I know that BYU has a religion to protect and promote, but I would think it would be more careful to attach its name to such uninformed drivel.

Getting things wrong is precisely one way in which science progresses, as it moves incrementally toward “truth,” if you will. It is often when it gets things wrong that it produces the insights that helps it get things right in the future. The scientific process is open, transparent, and uses well-established ex ante decision rules. None of this can be said of religion.

Over time, religion has consistently ceded to science on numerous issues. Whenever religion has ventured into the scientific realm, it has been beaten back, battered, and discredited. Can anyone point to any issue in which religion has eventually proved science wrong?

It is idiocy like this that makes me ashamed to ever have had my name attached to BYU.

Disparaging science is a red herring intended to divert attention from the very plain fact that Mormon Prophets and Apostles have got it wrong for over a century and a half. The Mormon God, and his spokesperson, are, like so many other religious braggarts before them and after them, no match for the march of science and reason.

[_karl61]

What do you guys believe in?

I'm agnostic. I believe that the Mormon prophets are fallible human beings who speak their opinions over the pulpit, basically what the apologists believe. I also believe knowledge within Mormonism comes the same way as it does in other organizations. That is, the men at the top meet regularly and make decisions that are in the best interests for the survival and growth of the organization.

I didn't mean in regards to Mormonism. What else interests you?

Well, I like playing games on the computer. My current game is Aces High II, which is a World War II combat flight simulator. I have a good CH Pro joystick, external throttle, and rudder pedals. My in-game name is, (drum roll.....) Sethbag. I'm getting OK.

I also am an amateur photographer. I use a Nikon D200 and four or five lenses, and two flashes.

I'm into amateur luthiery as well. I've made two violins from scratch, including making the varnish that I used on them. I've started a cello for my daughter. I'm going to order a book for Christmas this year on making electric guitars, because I'd really like to make one at some point. Maybe I'll make an electric bass too.

I like guns, but since moving out to Arizona I have hardly gone shooting at all. I suppose if I had people to go with, and a place to do it at, I'd probably do it more often.

I like reading the news on the web. I like listening to Prime Minister's Questions over the web. I like watching British films, like the period stuff like Sense and Sensibility, Pride and Prejudice, Our Mutual Friend, Wives and Daughters (it's not gay like you'd think, it's actually pretty good), Foyle's War, and others.

I hardly watch TV, since I spend most of my time on the computer or making a violin or something.

Anyhow, that's pretty much it.

WOW! thanks for sharing.

[_beastie]

Science will never prove the Book of Mormon true but it will also never prove it false. Where would you be Seth if DNA confirmed hebrew blood in the native american? I think that you would be playing 'Sing along with Mitch' in Sacrament Meeting. Right?

The only reason you think science will never prove the Book of Mormon true or false is because you've bought into the current apologetic method to make the Book of Mormon unfalsifiable.

Working hard to make a text unfalsifiable is not a vote of confidence.

The Book of Mormon, without the various apologetics that have been applied to it, read simply as Joseph Smith and thousands of other Mormons have read it since its inception, was falsified by science long ago.

[_The Dude]

"Ironically, these scientific critics allow much larger degree of tolerance to their own profession than they do to the realm of faith. When science admits it was wrong, it is seen as progress. When a religion modifies a statement in the slightest degree, it is seen as being an imposter. When believers accept the change, they are guilty of doublethink. When intellectuals accept science’s changes, they are on the cutting edge of knowledge."

It's really embarrassing for a university student to make comments like this. Such a profound lack of understanding of how science operates! It rivals bcspace in ignorance. I know that BYU has a religion to protect and promote, but I would think it would be more careful to attach its name to such uninformed drivel.

If only it were just a student. "This editorial represents the opinion of The Daily Universe editorial board." Such mentality is one reason why I've never given a dime to BYU. The other reason is I'm because still angry about their militant parking enforcers, who screwed me out of enough money when I was a starving undergraduate. I hope they invested it wisely.

Sethbag and Guy, great responses to The (anti-science) Daily Redneck.