DCP Admits to "LDS Academic Embarrassment"

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_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

charity wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
Well then, I guess this means that DCP and Co. must not "have the evidence on their side," otherwise I'd imagine that we could expect them to be making beaucoup formal presentations on Book of Mormon history, and so forth.


We get them all the time. Where are you when they happen?


Oh, really? When was the last time you received an issue of even, say, National Geographic containing an article by DCP which discussed the validity of the Book of Mormon as a historical document? When was the last time Bill Hamblin, or any other Mopologist, presented this kind of stuff at a legit academic conference? (No: FARMS/FAIR does not count.)
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Personally, I think LDS scholars have a moral obligation to study and then present their findings on using peep stones to find buried treasure. Why, near my parent's home, someone buried a treasure of silver and gold over a hundred years ago that has now been lost. It's worth millions, no doubt. All that wealth going to waste when the LDS know the secret to finding it.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

beastie wrote:Personally, I think LDS scholars have a moral obligation to study and then present their findings on using peep stones to find buried treasure. Why, near my parent's home, someone buried a treasure of silver and gold over a hundred years ago that has now been lost. It's worth millions, no doubt. All that wealth going to waste when the LDS know the secret to finding it.


Heh. I know you're joking (or, at least I think you are...), but I actually agree with the principle of what you're saying. If LDS scholars want their theories to be regarded as "academically serious", then they really need to assert them as such in the proper venues.
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Post by _beastie »

Heh. I know you're joking (or, at least I think you are...), but I actually agree with the principle of what you're saying. If LDS scholars want their theories to be regarded as "academically serious", then they really need to assert them as such in the proper venues.


We all know the reason they don't. You have to believe FIRST, then the evidence will become clear. So if they present their mountains of evidence for, say, the historicity of the Book of Mormon, no one but people who already believe will be able to recognize it as good evidence. Everyone else will view it as wishful thinking, or possibly worse.

Believers can parse this in some way that will be less insulting to them. Perhaps the things of God are deliberately made to look like nonsense to those who are hard of heart. But the end result is the same. You have to believe FIRST in order to recognize any of this stuff as evidence.

I mean, really. Can you imagine Brant telling an audience of Mesoamerican scholars that the existence of the Jaguar sect of the Aztec military is evidence of some secret band of robbers in Mesoamerica (a.k.a. Gadianton Robbers)?? Unless his mind has changed, this is what he views as his strongest piece of evidence. I'm sure Brant knows how it would go over.

(edit on - I was serious in that, to be consistent, LDS believers must accept the validity of Joseph Smith' treasure digging with a peep stone - but of course I chose this example to demonstrate how silly the idea of them presenting these things to a nonLDS academic community is)
Last edited by Tator on Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

beastie wrote:
Heh. I know you're joking (or, at least I think you are...), but I actually agree with the principle of what you're saying. If LDS scholars want their theories to be regarded as "academically serious", then they really need to assert them as such in the proper venues.


I mean, really. Can you imagine Brant telling an audience of Mesoamerican scholars that the existence of the Jaguar sect of the Aztec military is evidence of some secret band of robbers in Mesoamerica (a.k.a. Gadianton Robbers)?? Unless his mind has changed, this is what he views as his strongest piece of evidence. I'm sure Brant knows how it would go over.


Yes, and therefore it is hightime that DCP & et. al. throw in the towel and just admit that these wonky theories are not up to snuff, and they have really never been subjected to proper peer review.
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Post by _beastie »

Yes, and therefore it is hightime that DCP & et. al. throw in the towel and just admit that these wonky theories are not up to snuff, and they have really never been subjected to proper peer review.


You know they will never admit this.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

beastie wrote:
Yes, and therefore it is hightime that DCP & et. al. throw in the towel and just admit that these wonky theories are not up to snuff, and they have really never been subjected to proper peer review.


You know they will never admit this.


That's fine by me, as it will give me something I can continuously badger them about. : )
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Post by _Runtu »

That thread went all weird once cdowis got involved. He started saying I insulted him because I wouldn't answer a question he never asked me. I asked him when he had asked said question, and he replied that he'd asked it of Yme, but I should have answered it.

Is this a new apologetic tactic? Ask a question of person X and then berate person Y for not answering the question?

Even Dr. Peterson couldn't figure out why Charles thought I was insulting him.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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Post by _Runtu »

And yet there's more. Here's my final exchange with cdowis:

(cdowis @ Nov 15 2007, 10:22 AM)

John w,

Here is the deal. When the prosecution puts on an expert witness to testify, the defense is allowed to cross examine. "You get the picture" is not acceptable testimony. The expert needs to justify scientifically his conclusion, not some kinderhook, Ferguson, Book of Abraham stuff but specific, hard evidence. We need to cross examine, either directly or by proxy.

Utterwise, you need to withdraw the witness if he cannot provide the information we request.

Your choice, answer the questions, or get the heck out of Dodge.




Charles,

Not being part of the "prosecution" and not having called any expert witnesses, I can only defend what I've said, not what others have said.

After reading Sorenson's article, I made two points, and two only:

1. I said that Sorenson's (and Dr. Peterson's) dismissal of Coe as not having read much was unwarranted. When you asked me to support that statement, I did so by reviewing Coe's review of the pertinent literature. At least in 1973 when the original article was written, he was well-versed in Mormon apologetics. His latest interview shows that he's at least familiar with Sorenson's work, and last I checked, Sorenson is still considered one of the best Book of Mormon scholars. Your reply (which was full of suggestions of ADD and other noninsulting material) once again asked me to defend a statement I've never made, namely that Coe had published a detailed study of the Book of Mormon a la Roberts. I explained to Dr. Peterson why I don't believe that's necessary. He disagreed, but he understood my position. Apparently I can't say the same for you.

2. I said that I was unimpressed with Sorenson's list of parallels, and I said why.

For whatever reason, you find it insulting that I haven't answered some questions that weren't addressed to me and that I haven't defended points I didn't make. If you want to be insulted, have at it. But I'm not playing this pointless game anymore.


To which Charles helpfully responded:

Once again you insult our intelligence. You quote Coe and refuse to give us his bona fides regarding the Book of Mormon. I have now placed you into ignore mode.


I can't help but wonder if he's doing this purposely or if his reading comprehension is really that bad.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Runtu wrote:To which Charles helpfully responded:

Once again you insult our intelligence. You quote Coe and refuse to give us his bona fides regarding the Book of Mormon. I have now placed you into ignore mode.


I can't help but wonder if he's doing this purposely or if his reading comprehension is really that bad.


The problem with what "What's up, Chuck?" Dowis is saying is that he has some harebrained notion of "Book of Mormon bonafides" in his head. Just what might these be, I wonder? Can one earn a degree in Book of Mormon studies somewhere? Is there some test you have to take after reading it?
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