truth dancer wrote:If quantum fluctuations (space time foam, or whatever), come out of "nothing", (or emptiness/quantum vacuum), then is this in opposition to the idea that something less complex cannot creat something more complex?
It is an interesting point though. An old religious idea was that nothing could exist without a God to in the first place create it and in the second spot sustain it. Virtual particles in quantum fluctuation appears to counter that idea for creation. Some speculate that the Big Bang may have been a quantum fluctuation of sorts. However, most of the time those virtual particles in quantum fluctions will quickly disppear. One exception is with black holes. Perhaps there are other exceptions? Either way, at least one of those old religious ideas has been pretty much debunked by quantum mechanics.
Asssuming, of course, that I actually understand what those old religious ideas were and even more that I even have a clue about what happens with quantum fluctuations (I'm not a physicist). Maybe Sethbag would know more since he mentioned physics along with German and c omputers at BYU.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
I'm not sure I agree with the notion you've been stating that increased entropy is somehow associated with "complexity". It really does depend on how you're defining complexity.
I would argue that a human life is more "complex", in the sense that we're talking about in this conversation, than a pile of the same kinds and quantities of elements that a human being would be made of. Are we not talking about organization and such things as life arising from otherwise non-living elements? And yet I'd argue that a human being has less entropy than a pile of human constituent elements.
I guess "complexity" can be a problematic word to use like this. Maybe organization is a lot better.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Oops, I posted while Abman was posting again. I just read his most recent two posts.
I honestly don't know what to say about nothingness. It's a hard concept to wrap one's mind around. If nothing existed, would it have dimensions? Would it have structure? Is it possible for nothing to exist?
I didn't graduate in Physics, though I did get a minor. I changed majors to computer science while in the 3rd year of physics. So I'm not holding myself up as someone who can talk about what exists in empty space, and so forth.
I will say that nothing in the universe, as we have yet observed and understood it, implies to me the existence of a God. From a purely Earthly and human-centric perspective, I think that the notion that there is a God who created the Earth especially for human beings to rule over it, and to use for their own purposes, and then didn't reveal himself to human beings and let them know of his will, for the first, oh, 100,000+ years of human existence, is completely insupportable when viewed in the grand scheme of things. That he then, only recently, as in a few thousand years ago, gave us the real deal about why we're here, who he is, etc., and then did so in a way that the information is not verifiable, and that it conflicts with things we have observed about the earth and the ways it works, etc. are further clues. I think it vanishingly unlikely that a God who actually existed, and who created the billions of galaxies of billions of stars each, would give us an utterly unreliable means of communicating with him. That is, the way it is claimed we can communicate with him is subject to spoofing (devils answering us, not God), is impossible to discern from more mundane feelings and euphoric experiences and so forth, and which is utterly contradicted by all the other people out there claiming Divine instruction.
I see a universe, the story of which simply doesn't contain a God, and that the most likely reason for that is that there isn't one.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Sethbag wrote:I'm not sure I agree with the notion you've been stating that increased entropy is somehow associated with "complexity".
Look up Shannon entropy. Shame on abestosman for being aware of science. Let's go on using the term "complexity" like a new-age hippy uses the term "energy" instead.
Some Schmo wrote:Oh! You're being absurd on purpose! How silly of me not to notice right away. I get it now.
You know, you could have just said that up front and saved me the time of even thinking about it.
I wasn't being absurd. Also, you are a very ignorant person who gets a pass here to some extent because you are surrounded by people who share your general side. I honestly doubt Dawkins was even making the argument you explained for him, but it is awful either way. You have done nothing to clarify or defend it and seemed to severely misunderstand the criticisms I offered.
This is pretty funny dude. You gotta love the "everyone's stupid except me" attitude some people have, especially when they're the ones most guilty of idiocy. I'm not addressing your arguments because they are convoluted and make very little sense to normal thinking people. You can't even stick to a single train of thought without going off on some ridiculous nonrelated tangent. Don't blame me because you don't understand the argument and can't be bothered to read it.
Again, you don't do much for dispelling the stereotype that Mormons are idiots. Way to go.
I appreciate you making your true nature known so I don't have to waste my time on your puny intellect going forward. You are dismissed, little one.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
This is pretty funny dude. You gotta love the "everyone's stupid except me" attitude some people have, especially when they're the ones most guilty of idiocy. I'm not addressing your arguments because they are convoluted and make very little sense to normal thinking people. You can't even stick to a single train of thought without going off on some ridiculous nonrelated tangent. Don't blame me because you don't understand the argument and can't be bothered to read it.
Again, you don't do much for dispelling the stereotype that Mormons are idiots. Way to go.
The Dude doesn't appear to be so ignorant. You, on the other hand, do. That the Dude feels the need to go over to MADB and mock naïve people there and while ignoring the idiotic comments on his own thread here by fellow critics of the LDS faith says something about his intellectual habits and desires, but don't fancy yourself as just another victim of my delusional arrogance. I have a low opinion of your knowledge and likely intelligence because of your comments. Can you even define complexity in a coherent manner?
A Light in the Darkness wrote: The Dude doesn't appear to be so ignorant. You, on the other hand, do. That the Dude feels the need to go over to MADB and mock naïve people there and while ignoring the idiotic comments on his own thread here by fellow critics of the LDS faith says something about his intellectual habits and desires, but don't fancy yourself as just another victim of my delusional arrogance. I have a low opinion of your knowledge and likely intelligence because of your comments. Can you even define complexity in a coherent manner?
Wow, your reading comprehension really does suck. I almost feel sorry for you.
It doen't matter what your opinion is. You have no credibility. Why should I care?
What part of "you are dismissed" did you misunderstand? You're free to run along and play with your friends now (assuming the other boys will play with you).
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
Sethbag wrote:I'm not sure I agree with the notion you've been stating that increased entropy is somehow associated with "complexity".
Look up Shannon entropy. Shame on abestosman for being aware of science. Let's go on using the term "complexity" like a new-age hippy uses the term "energy" instead.
You'll have to excuse me for only having been familiar with the thermodynamic concept of entropy. Under that concept, an increase of entropy is not akin, in any way, to an increase in the organization or sophistication of anything.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Some Schmo wrote:I'm not addressing your arguments because they are convoluted and make very little sense to normal thinking people. You can't even stick to a single train of thought without going off on some ridiculous nonrelated tangent. Don't blame me because you don't understand the argument and can't be bothered to read it.
I thought ALITD's criticisms of the PBS documentary were pretty sharp. Shortly after that post, this thread started to go off topic and I lost interest. I admit, I'm too ignorant (or too practical) to argue philosophy with you guys.
ALITD wrote:That the Dude feels the need to go over to MADB and mock naïve people there and while ignoring the idiotic comments on his own thread here by fellow critics of the LDS faith says something about his intellectual habits and desires....
I was just trying to be a light in the darkness of Rob Osborn's thread. :)
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond