What do you find odd about the Book of Mormon?

[_Sethbag]

Ok, looking at the Book of Mormon, in Chapters 18 and 19 of 1 Nephi, it says about 592-589 or so. So it must have taken Nephi up to three years to mine the ore, make the tools, fell the trees, prepare and season the logs, saw out and finish the timbers, actually construct the ship, the spars, etc., build the casks or jars to hold tons of food and water, plant whatever crop he would have used to harvest fibers for the preparation of cordage, make the cordage, weave the cloth to make the sales, actually cut out and sew, properly designed and reinforced sales (they had to last all the way across the ocean), launch the ship, complete the fitting out of the ship, gather seeds, etc. And he did this by himself, with the grudging help of Laman and Lemuel, and help from Zoram and Sam, and Jacob. Uhuh.

I'm not a huge maritime buff or anything, so I did a little looking up, and I think it's fair to say that a rather small ship that would have been big enough to have carried the 20 or so people, along with all the water and food they'd need, across the ocean, might have displaced, say, 200 tons. Most of that weight would have been in timbers. To get that many timbers he would have had to have harvested over 200 tons of wood. And he had to do all of this with tools which he'd just made himself from iron that he'd just mined and smelted.

In England, for example, they would cut down mighty oak trees, saw them into sections, and then transport the logs on mighty wagons pulled by entire teams of horses. The labor, and machines (like block and tackle and whatnot) just to lift the logs onto the wagons was immense. Once at the required location, from the forest where they came from, the logs had to be prepared and seasoned for a number of years. Sawyers would then lay out a plan for how many and what size of timbers they would saw from each log, based on the requirements and what they had to work with. They would then saw them out using the two-handled saws you see in museums these days. It was back-breaking work. To saw, much less harvest and transport, 200 tons of wood for the ship would have been beyond Nephi and his family, not to mention anything else that needed doing.

Where'd they get the cordage? Where'd they get the sails? Each and every piece of rigging, tools, gear, etc. that were required for the ship was produced by specialized tradesmen, using knowledge and secrets and methods passed down over centuries and millenia.

So we have Nephi, inside of three years, learning the jobs of, becoming, and performing the jobs of, miners, smelters, toolmakers, treecutters, seasoners, sawyers, cordage makers, weavers, sailmakers, coopers or, alternatively, potters, seed producers, transport workers (moving the logs, etc.), shipwrights, quartermasters, and probably a lot of other trades that a guy like me in 2007 doesn't even know existed.

No wonder those cartoonish pictures of Nephi show him being so freaking buff. The guy must have been superman!

[_SatanWasSetUp]

One is Nephi making a ship. .

Just one word answers your concerns, seth. NOAH.

NOAH??!!! WTF? Charity, aren't you practicing to be scholarly like Juliann? Here's some advice. Don't use Noah to try to prove anything.

[_karl61]

This question has puzzled my for some time. I have seen a number of people on message board who express a deep attatchment to the Book of Mormon beyond spiritual testamony, beyond its representative value for the church or Joseph Smiths calling. There are people who perceive some message in the book to which they feel strongly attached and by which they are deeply influenced. I'm scatching my head wondering what?

Charity made a beginning with some specific suggestions.

I am deeply repelled by the picture of the church in the new world (AD) going from such excellence and success to utter oblivion.

Partly my distaste is simple skepticism. Beyond that it seems to picture the world as evil and threatening beyond my wildest nightmare.

Are people attached to that fear?

it's actually a bit like the Lord of the Rings, except with a christian message (most of the time). But you get a lot of other stuff: God himself, armies, seerstones, prophets, fire, angeles, the evil going after the good. If the Church would just push it as fiction then the world might take the Book of Mormon seriously.

[_MishMagnet]

The amount of verbage and wordplay coming from a record written on metal tablets. I've never written on metal tablets personally but I think I'd be getting to the point. I find the argument for chaismus contrary to the realistic process of recording these events.

Along this same line, the use of King James English. Thou, thine, etc.

[_charity]

And he did this by himself, with the grudging help of Laman and Lemuel, and help from Zoram and Sam, and Jacob. Uhuh.

So we have Nephi, inside of three years, learning the jobs of, becoming, and performing the jobs of, miners, smelters, toolmakers, treecutters, seasoners, sawyers, cordage makers, weavers, sailmakers, coopers or, alternatively, potters, seed producers, transport workers (moving the logs, etc.), shipwrights, quartermasters, and probably a lot of other trades that a guy like me in 2007 doesn't even know existed.

No wonder those cartoonish pictures of Nephi show him being so freaking buff. The guy must have been superman!

How terribly chauvinistic of you to forget to mention the contributions the women could have made.

And we know now, (not in 1829) that the region was noted for ship builidng. So what if Nephi didn't mention any places where he could have gotten supplies. Or helpers. And of course, God does help people to do difficult or even impossible things. David killed a giant. Moses parted a sea.

[_Mercury]

Just one word answers your concerns, seth. NOAH.

That argument is just sad. Come up with something, oh I don't know...Believable!!!!!

[_huckelberry]

This question has puzzled my for some time. I have seen a number of people on message board who express a deep attatchment to the Book of Mormon beyond spiritual testamony, beyond its representative value for the church or Joseph Smiths calling. There are people who perceive some message in the book to which they feel strongly attached and by which they are deeply influenced. I'm scatching my head wondering what?

Charity made a beginning with some specific suggestions.

I am deeply repelled by the picture of the church in the new world (AD) going from such excellence and success to utter oblivion.

Partly my distaste is simple skepticism. Beyond that it seems to picture the world as evil and threatening beyond my wildest nightmare.

Are people attached to that fear?

it's actually a bit like the Lord of the Rings, except with a christian message (most of the time). But you get a lot of other stuff: God himself, armies, seerstones, prophets, fire, angeles, the evil going after the good. If the Church would just push it as fiction then the world might take the Book of Mormon seriously.

Hi styleguy, my attatched to the fear comment was a bit of a shot in the dark. I was fishing. Your comment made me wonder about the enjoyment of suspended disbelief that fiction allows. Some story devices invite that pleasant state if the reader allows it. I am enough a skeptic to figure that must be a part.

I do think there is some pieces of idealism clear enough that they mean something to people.

[_Sethbag]

And he did this by himself, with the grudging help of Laman and Lemuel, and help from Zoram and Sam, and Jacob. Uhuh.

So we have Nephi, inside of three years, learning the jobs of, becoming, and performing the jobs of, miners, smelters, toolmakers, treecutters, seasoners, sawyers, cordage makers, weavers, sailmakers, coopers or, alternatively, potters, seed producers, transport workers (moving the logs, etc.), shipwrights, quartermasters, and probably a lot of other trades that a guy like me in 2007 doesn't even know existed.

No wonder those cartoonish pictures of Nephi show him being so freaking buff. The guy must have been superman!

How terribly chauvinistic of you to forget to mention the contributions the women could have made.

Yeah, how terribly chauvinistic of me. As if it would have helped take it from the realm of sheer fantasy to the realm of possibility by adding in the labor of a half a dozen working mothers.

Charity, this simply didn't happen. And Noah didn't build an ark that held 2 of some kinds, and 7 of other kinds of animals, along with food and water, and his family, for a year. And Moses didn't part the red sea. Who knows whether David really killed a tall guy named Goliath.

You are the poster child for "magical thinking".

And we know now, (not in 1829) that the region was noted for ship builidng. So what if Nephi didn't mention any places where he could have gotten supplies. Or helpers. And of course, God does help people to do difficult or even impossible things. David killed a giant. Moses parted a sea.

Ah, so now we've gone from the Limited Geography Theory to the Limited Shipbuilding Theory, where Nephi actually bought supplies from shipbuilders in the area, hired workers, and merely directed the building of a ship, using experienced shipwrights and a blueprint provided by God. I'm still confused as to why Nephi had to actually mine his own ore, and smelt it, and produce his own iron tools, if there was a local shipbuilding facility with workers and all. Maybe that was "sweat equity" he had to provide as part of his payment for all the cordage, sails, timbers, casks or jars, provisions, spars, laborers, etc. Building a ship was a very capital-intensive venture. It was extremely expensive. If Nephi actually just contracted out most of the ship, as you imply he might have done, it would have cost them an arm and a leg to do so. I guess they hauled around chests of gold (you know, the gold were holding back when they were supposed to be trying to buy the brass plates off Laban) in the wilderness just waiting for the opportunity to spend all that money.

Of course, if you actually read chapters 17 and 18 of 1 Nephi, it very clearly says that Nephi and his brethren built the ship. Or is this just like the "others", and you're going to find some verse that's just ambiguous enough to sneak a whole shipyard full of naval supplies and laborers into the story?

[_skippy the dead]

One is Nephi making a ship. .

Just one word answers your concerns, seth. NOAH.

And Nephi didn't have a build a boat big enough to take two of some kinds of animals, 7 of others, all the food to feed them for a year. He just had to get a small family across the Atlantic. No big.

Noah is yet another myth. So not a big help in your defense.

[_evolving]

the meanest bad-ass serpents of all time ---

Ether 9:
31 And there came forth poisonous serpents also upon the face of the land, and did poison many people. And it came to pass that their flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land southward, which was called by the Nephites Zarahemla.
32 And it came to pass that there were many of them which did perish by the way; nevertheless, there were some which fled into the land southward.
33 And it came to pass that the Lord did cause the serpents that they should pursue them no more, but that they should hedge up the way that the people could not pass, that whoso should attempt to pass might fall by the poisonous serpents.