Adamic/KEP logical connection

[_dartagnan]

The point is he claimed to have the ability to translate one specfic ancient language into our modern Engllish. The so called "means" by which he did it is really an irrelevant diversion created by the apologists, and people like charity do not even understand the apologetic to begin with.

Whether he did so through natural learning or divine revelation, "translation" was and is understood the same way; conveying in language B what was meant in language A. Otherwise, what the hell is he doing?

The apologists are barking up the wrong tree on this one if they want to say Joseph Smith never really claimed to have translated the individual chracters.

[_charity]

So charity does this mean Joseph Smith lied?

He and the Church have maintained that he could and did "translate" ancieent documents.

Dartagnan, would you please figure out the word "translate" means something other that what we use the word "translate" today.

[_dartagnan]

You are dodging the question, which is to be expected.

Did Joseph Smith lie? Hee said he could translate, and you say he couldn't.

If you think he meant translation in an entirely different sense, then what sense is that? You don't say. You merely assert and expect us to buy it, the same way you buy anything written by FARMS without thinking it through critically.

And what evidence do you have for what we already know to be ad hoc apologetic nonsensewww?

[_evolving]

Have any of you fine people researched the works of -- John Dee A.D. 1581 - 1583

he has it all - he was a champion skryer - had angelic visitation - developed an angelic alphabet --- some remarkable similarities --IMO



http://www.hermetic.com/browe-archive/enochian.htm
excerpts here :

Period two: Liber Loagaeth and the Angelic Alphabet

Liber Loagaeth is the most mysterious part of Dee and Kelly’s work. It is also known variously as the Book of Enoch and as Liber Mysteriorum Sextus et Sanctus. No one as yet has made serious attempts to use it, or to understand its nature beyond what is recorded in the diaries. According to the angels, "logaeth" means "speech from God"; this book is supposed to be, literally, the words by which God created all things. It is supposedly the language in which the "true names" of all things are known, giving power over them.

As described in Liber Mysteriorum Quintis, the book was to consist of 48 "leaves", each of which contains a 49-by-49 grid. The book as actually presented to Kelly is somewhat different. It contains 49 "Calls" in an unknown language, 95 tables of squares filled with letters and numbers, two similar tables unfilled, and four tables drawn twice as large as the others. Two "leaves" are recorded in Liber Mysteriorum Quintis; these are not included in the final book, and apparently serve as an introduction or prologue to the work.

On the surface, the "Calls" of Liber Loagaeth do not appear to be a language as humans understand the term. There are no translations by which this might be judged in detail, but the text lacks the repetitiveness and consistent word-placement that is characteristic of the 48 Enochian Calls given in the next year. There is no apparent grammar to the text. Donald Laycock remarks that the language is highly alliterative and repetitively rhyming, while Robert Turner calls it "glossolalic". The angels said that each element of each table could be understood in 49 different ways, so that there were that many "languages" in it, all of them being spoken at once.

The purpose of Loagaeth was said to be the ushering in of a new age on Earth, the last age before the end of all things. Instructions for using it to that effect were never given; the angels continually put it off, saying that only God could decide when the time was right.

During the presentation of the two leaves in Liber Mysteriorum Quintis, an angel in the scrying stone would point to the letters successively, and Kelly would read out the names of the angelic characters. Dee transcribed a version using the Roman alphabet, apparently with the intention of redrawing it in angelic characters at a later date.

The record indicates that at the start of each session a light would fly out of the scrying stone and into Kelly’s head; this light was seen by both of them. Once the light entered Kelly, his consciousness was transformed so that he could comprehend the text as he read it. He was firmly ordered not to provide a translation, with the explanation that God would select the time for it to be revealed. He nevertheless provided translations of a few of the words, but insufficient to gather the meaning of the text as a whole.

When the light was withdrawn from Kelly’s head, he would immediately cease to understand the text, and was no longer able to see it in the stone. On a few occasions, the light continued in him for a short time after the end of the session, and at these times Dee notes that Kelly said many marvelous (and unrecorded) things about the nature of the texts. But the instant the light withdrew, Kelly could no longer understand it, or recall what he had said even moments before. The record says that the 23rd line of the first leaf was a preface to the creation and distinction of angels, and the 24th line an invitation pleasant to good angels. Nothing else is recorded of the purpose of the book.

It soon became apparent that the method used was too slow. The angels were under some time constraint in presenting the book, and arranged that Kelly would be able to see the book at any time. He was to directly record what he saw rather than reading it to Dee. During this latter part of the work, Kelly apparently did not have the deep understanding of the book’s meaning, but only a visual apperception of its letters.

The first leaf shown to Dee and Kelly contained the "angelic" alphabet displayed above the grid. The two were given the names and English equivalents of the letters, and told to memorize them before continuing. When Dee did not do so, and complained of the other demands on his time, the angels strongly rebuked him. The text of the leaves was drawn in the characters of this alphabet, and at the angels’ instruction they were also applied to the lamen and holy table of the Heptarchic magick.

Several people have alleged that the angelic alphabet was copied from some earlier book. Laycock examined all of the possibilities, and while he recognized certain stylistic similarities with previous magickal alphabets, he concluded that none of them was sufficiently like it to count as an earlier version.

[Guest]

Here are links to the images of the Dee's adamic alphabet --

things that make you go Hmmmm.....

http://www.esotericarchives.com/dee/enoch1.gif
http://www.esotericarchives.com/dee/enoch3.gif
http://www.esotericarchives.com/dee/enoch2.gif

[_charity]

You are dodging the question, which is to be expected.

Did Joseph Smith lie? Hee said he could translate, and you say he couldn't.

If you think he meant translation in an entirely different sense, then what sense is that? You don't say. You merely assert and expect us to buy it, the same way you buy anything written by FARMS without thinking it through critically.

And what evidence do you have for what we already know to be ad hoc apologetic nonsensewww?

The sense of "translate" is to get some work in one language into another. How Joseph did it was by the gift and power of God. How we do it today is to know 2 languages--take a document in one language that we know and put it into the other language that we know. It is obvious with the way Joseph "translated" the Book of Mormon and the JST that this is not the way he was using the term.

Joseph said he "translated" the Book of Mormon. We know he did not know reformed Egyptian. He said he "translated" the JST. We know he didn't work with old Greek texts. He said the Book of Abraham was "translated." He used the word "translated" as I have just explained above. Be consistent. You cannot force your definition on to him.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Joseph Smith Diary:

July 1835 – The remainder of this month, I was continually engaged in translating an alphabet to the Book of Abraham, and arranging a grammar of the Egyptian language as practiced by the ancients.

[_beastie]

Charity is right - "translate", for Joseph Smith, obviously meant making up stuff.

[_ludwigm]

Here are the images of the Dee's adamic alphabet --
things that make you go Hmmmm.....

Please, evolving, cut the images out, or decrease them.
They made the page near unreadable!

Ludwig

[_dartagnan]

Charity you are avoiding the point again and dodging the question.

Let me make this simple, since you seem to insist on getting carried away with this irrelevant " means."

To say you know Egyptian is one thing.

To say you can translate Egyptian into English is quite another.

Nobody here has said Joseph Smith believed he "knew" Egyptian. But he did believe he had the ability to translate Egyptian into English. The "means" is irrelevant to the point that Joseph Smith could not do what he said.

What definition of "translate" are you falling back on in order to give Smith enough leeway to get it all wrong? You won't answer because you have no understanding of this apologetic.

The sense of "translate" is to get some work in one language into another.

To "get some work in"? What the hell kind of comment is that?

The fact is Joseph Smith believed, and he convinced his followers that he had the ability to translate the Egyptian language in the same exact sense we understand the term "translate" today.