Abinadi's Fire wrote: No, they can say Zarahemla doesn't exist because there is no evidence, outside of the claims based on "translated" gold plates, delivered by an angel, that it did.
Science, it would appear, is a bit stringent in its examination of available evidence.
A scientist will say, "There is no evidence that Zarahemla exists."
A pseudo-scientist will say, "Zarahemla does not exist, because I haven't seen any evidence that it exists."
If you can't tell the difference between the two statements, you can't evalulate anything that puts itself forward as "science."
Charity, as you say Zarahemla exists, I ask for credible evidence in support of your assertion.
Where, exactly, do you say it was located, based on your evidence?
charity wrote: The text which describes your Yum Yum town--does it describe a geography which can be located in a real world location, an area, if not pinpointed to a specific lattitude and longitude? Does it describe flora and fauna which can be identified? Does it describe styles of warfare known to exist in a specific area? Are the names of the inhabitants of Yum Yum town consistent with the cultures the settlers of Yum Yum town originated in? Does this text describe a coherent history of Yum Yum for a thousand years?
Hey, if you have such a text I will read it and then I will consider Yum Yum town.
As a recognized scholar in all things pertaining to Yum Yum town, I can say that all your concerns about Yum Yum town will be resolved in my upcoming book entitled The Life, Culture, History, and Geography of Yum Yum Town from a Really Smart Guy with a PHD. Researchers have uncovered new and exciting evidence proving the existence of Yum Yum town.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
charity wrote:The text which describes your Yum Yum town--does it describe a geography which can be located in a real world location, an area, if not pinpointed to a specific lattitude and longitude?
I didn't know a real-world location had been found for Book of Mormon!
Is it the American Northeast? Malaysia? Tehuantepec? That little island off the coast of South America?
Charity. Seriously. Which real-world location are you suggesting fits with Book of Mormon but at the same time can't be "pinpointed to a specific latitude and longitude?" That's synonymous with saying "I don't know the real-world location of Book of Mormon."
What real-world location lacks locational points on a coordinate grid?
Book of Mormon geographical speculation certainly doesn't lack for purported locales (or "areas"). The problem is that there are simply too many.
beastie wrote: The problem is that no such text exists for Zarahemla, either.
Honestly, Charity. Every single point you made is incorrect in terms of the match between the Book of Mormon and Mesoamerica. Have you read anything other than Mormon apologetics on the subject?
Since you suggest there has been a serious study trying to match the Book of Mormon and a mesoAmerican and found everything incorrect, can you point me to the source?
Since you suggest there has been a serious study trying to match the Book of Mormon and a mesoAmerican and found everything incorrect, can you point me to the source?
The subject I was referring to is Mesoamerica itself, not the fit with the Book of Mormon.
So let me rephrase my question for clarity:
Have you read anything about the subject of Mesoamerica other than that which is produced within LDS apologetics?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
If it is all fine and good to be on the hunt for evidence of Zarahemla, then I wonder: why haven't any LDS apologists and/or scholars attempted to locate Kolob in the night sky? Why haven't there been any LDS astronomers pushing theories about how Kolob might be affecting the fabric of space-time? Just curious....
I don't know there aren't. You made an assumption. Now, of course, if you know all astronomers and have first hand knowledge of this, I will bow to your superior knowledge. On the other hand, if you are just blowing smoke. . . . .
Abinadi's Fire wrote: Charity, as you say Zarahemla exists, I ask for credible evidence in support of your assertion.
Where, exactly, do you say it was located, based on your evidence?
I don't have any evidence on my own. I am not an archeologist or antrhopologist. I find Larry Poulsen's work pretty convincing. Check out http://bomgeography.poulsenll.org/notes.html He goes strictly by the text, and uses googleearth satellite imaging.
SatanWasSetUp wrote:
charity']
Hey, if you have such a text I will read it and then I will consider Yum Yum town. [/quote]
[quote="sataWasSetUp wrote:As a recognized scholar in all things pertaining to Yum Yum town, I can say that all your concerns about Yum Yum town will be resolved in my upcoming book entitled The Life, Culture, History, and Geography of Yum Yum Town from a Really Smart Guy with a PHD. Researchers have uncovered new and exciting evidence proving the existence of Yum Yum town.
I will anxiously await your exciting new book. Or maybe I shouldn't hold my breath?
Here's mine. I do not pretend to be an expert on ancient Mesoamerica, but I do have more than a passing interest in the subject. NOTHING I've read supports the assertion you made earlier on this thread, about what a great fit the Book of Mormon is to ancient Mesoamerica, so I'm extremely curious as to what you've read that gives you the impression it is a good fit.
I’m not putting these in any particular order, other than the where they happen to be on my shelf. When more than one author is involved, I’m just listing the first. This does not include past library books I read but do not own. These were easily accessible, I may have more packed away.
1. The Myth of Quetzalcoatl – Enrique Florescano
2. Ancient Maya, Rise and Fall of a Rainforest Civilization – Arthur Demarest
3. Ancient Mesoamerica: A Comparison of Change in Three Regions – Blanton etc
4. The Aztecs – Richard Townsend
5. The Maya and Teotihuacan – Geoffrey Braswell
6. Ideology and Pre-Columbian Civilizations – Arthur Demarest
7. Romancing the Maya – Mexican Antiquity in the American Imagination 1820-1915 – R. Tripp Evans
8. Ancient Oaxaca – Richard Blanton
9. Breaking the Maya Code – Michael Coe
10. Handbook to Life in the Ancient Maya World – Lynn Foester
11. Ancient Mesoamerican Warfare – Kathryn Brown
12. Popol Vuh – Dennis Tedlock
13. The Olmecs: America’s First Civilization – Richard Diehl
14. Religions of Mesoamerica: Cosmovision and Ceremonial Centers – David Carrasco
15. Mexico: From the Olmecs to the Aztecs – Michael Coe
16. Lords of Creation: The Origins of Sacred Maya Kingship – Virginia Fields
17. Maya Political Science: Time, Astronomy, and the Cosmos – Prudence Rice
18. Social Patterns in Pre-classic Mesoamerica – David C. Grove
19. The Code of Kings – Linda Schele
20. Ancient Maya Commoners – Jon C. Lohse
21. A Forest of Kings – Linda Schele
22. Mexican Highland Cultures: Sigvald Linne
23. The Mesoamerican Ballgame – Crenon L. Scarborough
24. The Maya – Michael Coe
25. Maya Cosmos – Linda Schele
26. War and Society in Ancient Mesoamerica – Ross Hassig (still reading)
Books related to the topic of archaeology and ancient history, but are related to the topic in some way:
27. Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries: Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology – Kenneth Feder
28. The Past in Perspective: An Introduction to Human Prehistory – Kenneth Feder
29. The Moundbuilder: Ancient People of Eastern Northern America – George Milner
30. Indian Mounds of the Middle Ohio Valley – Susan Woodward (still reading)
31. The History of Chocolate- Michael and Sophie Coe
32. Collapse – How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed – Jared Diamond (includes Maya section)
33. Reading the Past: Current Approaches to Interpretation of Archaeology – Ian Hodder
34. What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know It? – William Dever
35. The Political Landscape – Constellations of Authority in Early Complex Polities – Adam Smith
36. The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology & Salvation in the Ancient World – David Ulansey
37. Horses Through Time – Sandra Olsen
38. Guns, Germs, and Steel – Jared Diamond
39. Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From – William Dever
40. Out of the Fiery Furnace: The Impact of Metals on the History of Mankind – Robert Raymond
41. The Religions of Ancient Israel: A Synthesis of Parallactic Approaches – Ziony Zevit
42. Final Report: An Archaeologist Excavates His Past – Michael Coe (still reading)
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.