If that's the case, then BYU should be the first to offer a PhD in Mormon Studies, and should certainly offer a PhD program in Biblical Studies. And I'm wondering why they don't.
Me too, and wondering if this blooming academic Mormon elite exists largely in someone's imagination. ;)
Perhaps because there is no one qualified to teach in the program? Or perhaps because a PhD in Mormon Studies would be in conflict with the Upper 15, because they would all know more about Mormons than Mormon leaders do? No more plausible deniability?
This is such a great point. TBMs want LDS scholarship to have the patina of credibility, and yet they are unwilling to do the things that would bring real, genuine validity to said scholarship, probably because, as you point it, it would represent a conflict of interest.
Mister Scratch wrote: A PM? Wow, Ray---you have got to be kidding me. Are you going to post the PM, or am I going to just have to take your word here, you know, given how little "credibility" you give me. Where did Tarski tell me to "give it up", Ray? Do you have a link? Certainly *I* didn't receive any PMs from him telling me this. I did receive a PM from him on a certain topic, and it was quite the opposite of what you are suggesting here, mate. Gee, I sure do hope you haven't been caught in a lie!
I don't lie, Scratch. Whatever faults I have, I am not a liar. Tarski would have thought it worthless to PM you, because he expressed dissatisfaction with your obsession on the thread concerned, and you ignored him.
Mister Scratch wrote: A PM? Wow, Ray---you have got to be kidding me. Are you going to post the PM, or am I going to just have to take your word here, you know, given how little "credibility" you give me. Where did Tarski tell me to "give it up", Ray? Do you have a link? Certainly *I* didn't receive any PMs from him telling me this. I did receive a PM from him on a certain topic, and it was quite the opposite of what you are suggesting here, mate. Gee, I sure do hope you haven't been caught in a lie!
I don't lie, Scratch. Whatever faults I have, I am not a liar. Tarski would have thought it worthless to PM you, because he expressed dissatisfaction with your obsession on the thread concerned, and you ignored him.
Mister Scratch wrote: by the way: Show me where I have "dished it out personally to other people" in a sense that it extends beyond online activity. You won't be able to do it. I don't do anything to anyone else that I wouldn't have them do to me. I have always responded only to online stuff, and that's it. How you can find fault with this practice is beyond me.
Then why did you post your personal email exchanges with DCP? Was that "online"? I could see you hesitated, but "necessity" made you do the deed. Your fans would have been disappointed if you hadn't.
If that's the case, then BYU should be the first to offer a PhD in Mormon Studies, and should certainly offer a PhD program in Biblical Studies. And I'm wondering why they don't.
Me too, and wondering if this blooming academic Mormon elite exists largely in someone's imagination. ;)
Perhaps because there is no one qualified to teach in the program? Or perhaps because a PhD in Mormon Studies would be in conflict with the Upper 15, because they would all know more about Mormons than Mormon leaders do? No more plausible deniability?
This is such a great point. TBMs want LDS scholarship to have the patina of credibility, and yet they are unwilling to do the things that would bring real, genuine validity to said scholarship, probably because, as you point it, it would represent a conflict of interest.
Or when none of the Upper 15 had a doctorate in Mormon Studies, I wonder if they would be awarded "honorary" PhDs in Mormon Studies, which would then make the degree meaningless. There is no educational requirement now to be called to be an Apostle, and this proposed Doctorate program would really cause some major angst. Where would the members look for leadership? The 15? Or the PhDs in Mormon Studies?
On another note, that doesn't explain why BYU doesn't have a doctorate program in Biblical Studies.
Mister Scratch wrote: by the way: Show me where I have "dished it out personally to other people" in a sense that it extends beyond online activity. You won't be able to do it. I don't do anything to anyone else that I wouldn't have them do to me. I have always responded only to online stuff, and that's it. How you can find fault with this practice is beyond me.
Then why did you post your personal email exchanges with DCP? Was that "online"? I could see you hesitated, but "necessity" made you do the deed. Your fans would have been disappointed if you hadn't.
Yes; that *was* online, Ray! I have never done as DCP has done, spreading rank gossip about "enemy" scholars, for example, or posting mean-spirited musings about my "apostate" neighbor, etc. I have stuck with online material only. Besides, many posters--including TBMs such as asbestosman---wanted the full story. If DCP wants to post the emails, he can go ahead and do it.
I have to say, it seems odd that you would complain about this, after DCP posted some of your private rantings on ZLMB. My criticism of Mopologists' online postings, in your deluded mind, is somehow WAY worse that cruel gossip aimed at destroying a person's life, such as was done with DCP and Quinn. I think you need to re-examine your perspective, my friend.
Last edited by Physics Guy on Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
harmony wrote:Or when none of the Upper 15 had a doctorate in Mormon Studies, I wonder if they would be awarded "honorary" PhDs in Mormon Studies, which would then make the degree meaningless. There is no educational requirement now to be called to be an Apostle, and this proposed Doctorate program would really cause some major angst. Where would the members look for leadership? The 15? Or the PhDs in Mormon Studies?
Yes, all of this makes great sense.
On another note, that doesn't explain why BYU doesn't have a doctorate program in Biblical Studies.
Probably because the Church has always favored the Book of Mormon over the Bible. The Bible, in my opinion, has always been seen as a "secondary" text. The Book of Mormon is what makes us unique, after all. So, for BYU to have a Biblical Studies program with none for the Book of Mormon would be tantamount to "caving in" to the outside world.
Mister Scratch wrote: I have to say, it seems odd that you would complain about this, after DCP posted some of your private rantings on ZLMB.
Now I'm convinced your memory is very short. DCP did no such thing. In his defense he offered to let others read the exchanges. You may not see a difference here, but I certainly do, and I was the subject under discussion. If he had posted the exchanges on the forum, I would have lowered my opinion of him. His diplomacy and tact in this regard always struck me as consistent.
harmony wrote:Or when none of the Upper 15 had a doctorate in Mormon Studies, I wonder if they would be awarded "honorary" PhDs in Mormon Studies, which would then make the degree meaningless. There is no educational requirement now to be called to be an Apostle, and this proposed Doctorate program would really cause some major angst. Where would the members look for leadership? The 15? Or the PhDs in Mormon Studies?
Yes, all of this makes great sense.
The real kicker would be if non-members were awarded doctorates in Mormon Studies, which is a possibility, if Claremont goes ahead with their own Mormon Studies department. Has that been funded? The church won't be able to control who gets a degree from Claremont, like they can control who gets one from BYU.
On another note, that doesn't explain why BYU doesn't have a doctorate program in Biblical Studies.
Probably because the Church has always favored the Book of Mormon over the Bible. The Bible, in my opinion, has always been seen as a "secondary" text. The Book of Mormon is what makes us unique, after all. So, for BYU to have a Biblical Studies program with none for the Book of Mormon would be tantamount to "caving in" to the outside world.
If they want to play with the Big Boys, and get the respect they think they deserve, then they have to offer the same programs. It is surely strange that a Christian church owned university doesn't have a doctoral program in Biblical Studies. Very strange.
Mister Scratch wrote: I have to say, it seems odd that you would complain about this, after DCP posted some of your private rantings on ZLMB.
Now I'm convinced your memory is very short. DCP did no such thing. In his defense he offered to let others read the exchanges. You may not see a difference here, but I certainly do, and I was the subject under discussion. If he had posted the exchanges on the forum, I would have lowered my opinion of him. His diplomacy and tact in this regard always struck me as consistent.
Yeah, sure, Ray. No doubt you felt his gossipmongering was "tactful" and "diplomatic" as well. Or the posting of Infymus's private, albeit very angry, exchange with him on SHIELDS. In fact, at least a couple of apparently private exchanges between DCP and ex-mos can be viewed at SHIELDS... Hmm, Ray... You're not a hypocrite, are you?
Whoops! It seems I have just torpedoed your entire argument. If you are going to fault me for the DCP emails thing, then you are going to have to fault The Good Professor twice over. So, let's see if you have any integrity or not....