1.
As I have written in the "Scenes from General Conference" thread:
thestyleguy wrote: I would like to see a least one rebel in the pictures wearing a bow tie.
... or beard, or moustache. (many of the early leaders had)
2.
This is not a first time when I make parallels with socialism. (not known in US ...)
In the 60's and 70's the beard was the hallmark of opposition, rebellion. (for the leaders --> then for the police)
Is it familiar? (OK, they didn't call it evil.)
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
I think you guys/gals are entirely too unbending and rigid. That's what I am beginning to see a lot of in the ex-mp. anti and critic crowd.
The LDS church's modern revelations consist of how many earrings a woman may wear, what color of shirt is appropriate for men....we are discussing rules about how male missionary's hair is parted. You have told us that God will ignore a prayer if it is asked more than once, won't provide help unless information is particularly requested, and you are suggesting it is the non-beievers who are rigid? LOL!!!!!
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
The Nehor wrote:While I've never heard of an Apostle sharing details of such an experience I've been in 4 meetings (with 3 Apostles) wherein the Apostle said they had had such an experience.
What does this mean, Nehor? You've "never heard" of Apostles telling that they've "seen Christ," and yet you were in "4 meetings" where they did exactly that? And, moreover, what "such an experience" are you referring to? Merely that they saw Christ, or that they observed the Savior sans beard and long hair?
No, I meant they've said they've seen him and one described his reaction to such an encounter. None shared any details though about what he or they said, just that it happened.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:While I've never heard of an Apostle sharing details of such an experience I've been in 4 meetings (with 3 Apostles) wherein the Apostle said they had had such an experience.
What does this mean, Nehor? You've "never heard" of Apostles telling that they've "seen Christ," and yet you were in "4 meetings" where they did exactly that? And, moreover, what "such an experience" are you referring to? Merely that they saw Christ, or that they observed the Savior sans beard and long hair?
This is a good time to introduce my new comic book I am making, after being inspired by CKSalmon:
LoaP, you know I love you, but this is a very stupid and immature reply. There is nothing wrong with folks being curious about these supreme and sublime experiences. Moreover, Elder Holland obviously had no problem pulling this little "Trump card" out of his pocket in order to browbeat the missionaries into submissive obedience.
I never saw it used as a Trump card. The meetings I was in the the Apostle spoke of it in humble and reverent terms. Twice the Apostle shared with us some advice on how to duplicate the experience.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
I think you guys/gals are entirely too unbending and rigid. That's what I am beginning to see a lot of in the ex-mp. anti and critic crowd.
The LDS church's modern revelations consist of how many earrings a woman may wear, what color of shirt is appropriate for men....we are discussing rules about how male missionary's hair is parted. You have told us that God will ignore a prayer if it is asked more than once, won't provide help unless information is particularly requested, and you are suggesting it is the non-beievers who are rigid? LOL!!!!!
~dancer~
As always, the irony of her statement never dawned on her.
Honest to Zeus, Charity is positively one of THE most unreflective personalities I've ever come across.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
Inconceivable wrote:I'm glad you felt that way, Ray. I felt for the members if the missionaries ever got a hold of their friends. It's amazing that it went on as long as it did.
I came to serve a few years after he left. I don't recall the members having much of a connection or fondness for us missionaries. Of course the mission motto was, "commit their face off". nuts.
As I recall, after being chastised, he became one of the quorem of the 70. Commended, promoted, chastened.. whatever.
You may be confusing Dunn with Earl Tingey. Loren Dunn was already a GA when called to preside over the Sydney Mission. Tingey was the MP before Dunn, and he was subsequently called to be a GA. Tingey had a very laid back approach to missionary work, and seemed to favour the "let them govern themselves" approach. This meant that many missionaries took liberties, like sleeping in 'till 7.30am. It was a bit out of control, and Dunn went to the other extreme in trying to rectify this. I did, and still do prefer, President Tingey's approach, because the missionaries seemed so much more human, and approachable. Under Loren Dunn, they became unapproachable, aloof, and none were allowed to wear "loud" suits. All clothing had to be "dark", and conservative. It was kind of morbid. His "24 hour" baptism idea was, I think, in part, to try to impress the Brethren, but it had the opposite effect. The convert losses from this were substantial. Dozens were baptised, but only a very small percentage were retained. They were caught, as it were, in an "emotional moment", which faded when the real tests came. After the Sydney experiment, Salt Lake City Headquarters clamped down on "hurried baptisms". In other words, they felt is was better to have two informed converts, than two hundred uninformed ones.
I'll defer to your recollections. I bought it all when a missionary.
When I got there in '82, the mission had already changed from a 4 hour (BD) conversion to a 7 day conversion schedule. It didn't work at all either. The BD experiment was also done in Victoria.
charity wrote:I had no idea until now what has caused all of you guys to go apostate. Now I know. You don't have a sense of humor. You can't tell when someone is joking.
I'm with Charity here. I'm quite sure Jeffrey was joking. He knows he has never seen Jesus, so there is no way he could've been serious.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
The Nehor wrote:No, I meant they've said they've seen him and one described his reaction to such an encounter. None shared any details though about what he or they said, just that it happened.
This is downright impossible. That Christ would appear to a handful of men, mention nothing about the state of his siblings, give no instruction about fixing the state of his siblings, and then disappear again is unthinkable.
Nope. What you propose is impossible.
[edited to add] And we know nothing was said about Christ's siblings because nothing has changed in the way the church deals with the poor, the widowed, the downtrodden. Had something changed, I'd believe this anecdote. Since it didn't, I don't. By their fruits. And our LDS leaders have no fruits worth mentioning.
What I have heard from various Church authorities, is that if Christ were living among us today, he would be clean-shaved, hair short, and wearing a tie.
charity wrote:I had no idea until now what has caused all of you guys to go apostate. Now I know. You don't have a sense of humor. You can't tell when someone is joking.
I'm with Charity here. I'm quite sure Jeffrey was joking. He knows he has never seen Jesus, so there is no way he could've been serious.
Holland wasn't joking. Holland was deliberately misleading a bunch of young men into believing something that isn't true. In other words, he lied.