truth dancer wrote:
Does the gospel include lies? Does it include untruths? Does it include cruelty? Does it include harming others? Does it include prophets thinking they are inspired when they are not? Does it include putting another's "truth" over one's own?
Here's the way I see it. The world is a place where goodness is. The world is a place where evil/corruption exists. The church is a step up from much of the world. It is also a place where goodness is. It is also a place where evil/corruption exists. Goodness and evil are continually at odds with each other. In the church and out of the church. There is opposition in ALL things...including the church.
I think Harmony is right. The pure and unadulterated gospel of Christ teaches that lying, dishonesty, cruelty, and disharmony with the Spirit are manifestations of the corrupt nature of man. We are all susceptible to the corrupt influences in this fallen world and the carnal nature of our bodies. Simply having correct knowledge does mandate a result/outcome of correct behavior.
What is "difficult truth"? Is it admitting that Joseph Smith did horrible things? Or does it mean ultimate truth can be horrible (CKHL is really hell)?
Yes to the first. No to the second...based on the fact that we know very little about what the CKHL is
really like.
I would LOVE for someone to explain to me why it is good to have faith in something that seems horrible, cruel, wrong, unholy, and totally unbelievable and at odds with reality.
It is good to have faith in a Savior who can, when all is said and done, make all that which is horrible, cruel, wrong, and unholy...right, or at least equitable.
Why is it a good idea to try to believe something, or have faith in a belief system, that is filled with untruths?
Filled? That's debatable. Riddled? Possibly. Think of a jar filled with rocks (truth). If sand (untruth/corruption) is poured in to the jar it will fill in the air space in between the rocks. Truth and error can co-exist, although it is possible for untruth/corruption (apostasy) to get the better hand. Thus, the church as a laboratory where truth and error, good and evil, co-exist with the hope that truth will prevail. The balance between alternate forces is complex and fraught with possibilities...although if we place faith in the revelations as recorded in the D&C, all will be right in the end.
Whose leaders apparently have no idea what is truth?
They learn line upon line, precept upon precept also. Periodically there may be "aha!" moments of pure, undefiled inspiration/revelation. Is it incomprehensible that truth, doctrine, and policies as they exist in the church can be the ultimate outcome of searching, hypothesizing, experimenting, and seeking revelation?
Or a belief that requires faith in something that goes completely contrary to what seems good and holy.
There is nothing that I know of in Mormonism that requires that we have faith in something that we believe is not true, good, and holy. At least as time has gone on and we, as a church, have evolved and matured.
As one goes backwards in time and comes across the unusual example/occurrence of Joseph's polyandry/polygamy, there was a lesser degree of opportunity for this (free choice) to occur. In these sorts of situations, which are troublesome to us today, I think that we have to settle with leaving things in the hands of God. After all, in the world as a whole, doesn't it become necessary to do the same thing? It's not like we can make it all right.
A comment that Joseph Smith made has always been interesting to me. He said that some revelations were of God, some were of man, and some were of the devil. It is up to us to sort out...even as we look at the early revelations of Joseph...which ones fell into which category.
Maybe it is better, when one's reality doesn't match a particular faith tradtion, to listen to one's heart, life authentically, and go with what seems right, makes sense, and feels right/holy/good.
As Nehor said, no one is forcing anyone to stay inside the church doors. You do have to do what your heart tells you. The thing to keep in mind, TD, is that there are a myriad of saints in the church that are making every effort to be just as right, good and holy as you are. The church does not exercise any influence otherwise as far as I can see.
You certainly don't have corner on the market in this respect.
by the way, I'm glad you took the time to read some of Todd Compton's essay. Do you think that he is having to jump through too many hoops in order to come down on the side of faith/belief? I'll tell ya, if anyone would have reason to leave the chapel doors behind, you might think it would be him, huh?!
For those that haven't read it, you can find it here:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/7207/rev.html
Regards,
MG