An Uncomfortable Conversation re Doubts

[_mms]

It is a sad thing. But it is fact of human nature. You are part of a tribe with strong views. We are the Only True and Living Church....so when one who has been such a strong part of the tribe falters it is a threat to the other tribe members. If indeed the Church is what it claims they would have to see you in some negative light in order to preserve their own position. There has to be something wrong with you. If you conclude that the Church is wrong and they do not you are not in tune with the spirit, the spirit has left you, or you maybe are sinning thus do not have the spirit-SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOU. If not then they would have to explore the possibilty that the Church is not what it claims, their tribe has led them wrong....this is very hard and uncomfortable for people to do.

Indeed.

A year ago or so, I had a conversation with a friend who has disappointed her parents for years because she is not as interested in the Church as they would like her to be and "raised her to be." I told her that to respect her parents' beliefs is to accept that they will be disappointed with her re the Church and not hold it against them and that if they respect her, they will accept that she is hurt by their disappointment in her and attempt to mitigate any impact it may have on their relationship. It seems a difficult problem.

[_Coggins7]

Nehor, you really disappoint me. Why do you insist on coming across as a stereotypical arrogant LDS male who doesn't have the capacity to view things outside the box?

As no such stereotype exists, except in the minds of a very specific core group of dissident LDS critics or as anti-Mormon myth generated from outside the Church for the consumption of those outside the Church, Nehor hasn't really come across as anything but an individual with his own particular take on things. He also likes to be facetious, much of the time, so don't leap into the abyss too quickly.

[Dr. Sunstoned]

rts

[_Coggins7]

It is a sad thing. But it is fact of human nature. You are part of a tribe with strong views. We are the Only True and Living Church....so when one who has been such a strong part of the tribe falters it is a threat to the other tribe members. If indeed the Church is what it claims they would have to see you in some negative light in order to preserve their own position. There has to be something wrong with you. If you conclude that the Church is wrong and they do not you are not in tune with the spirit, the spirit has left you, or you maybe are sinning thus do not have the spirit-SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOU. If not then they would have to explore the possibility that the Church is not what it claims, their tribe has led them wrong....this is very hard and uncomfortable for people to do.

Ahhh...now you feel better, don't you? You've sided with the underdog; with the oppressed, repressed, suppressed, and depressed. You've encouraged his doubt and disorientation, and through recourse to a really quite strained analogy of the Church as a "tribe". As you lay the blame on the Church's internal culture for his doubts (hoping, it seems, to disabuse him of any inkling that the doubts could, in fact be a function of psychological, emotional, and spiritual dynamics underway within himself that are not so much about the Church as about his individual response to it), you reaffirm the re-framing of your own retreat from the Gospel as a reaction against deficiencies inherent the Church (as over against the possibility that it is really a reaction to the requirements of the Church, but that is another story)

As I've not mentioned it up to this point, mms, this is not the place to be if you really want to work through your doubts and concerns in a positive and productive way.

This is not the place.

[_moksha]

Anyone who struggles has obviously been led away by Satan, committed some serious sin, or was offended by a member.

I am often offended by members. Joseph Smith offends me. Boyd Packer offends me. Dallin Oaks offends me. Brigham Young offends me. Joseph F Smith really offends me. The list is almost endless.

Yet I remain. *sigh*

From your perspective, why do you stay?

Because occasionally, there is a flash of true brilliance that is breathtaking. Because, occasionally, the spirit is strong and true. I'm not in the church because the church is true; I'm in the church because I can find the gospel anywhere, and the church is as good a place as any.

You see, I don't see the gospel as authority or ordinances or obedience. I see the gospel as loving strangers and those who have shown themselves to be my enemies as much as I love my family and my neighbors. I see the gospel as the opportunity to let what little light I have shine as brightly as I can. I see the gospel as the love of God brought to me personally in the form of a little girl, saved from a kidnapping, my name echoing through my house when there's no one home but me, and the warm sweet peace of knowing that while my son may not outlive me, he will not die from Hodgkin's Disease. If I cannot be an angel, I can at least be the best Harmony I can be. I cannot deny the presence of God in my life. God, however, is not the same as the church. And I remain skeptical and wary of our leaders. They have shown their true colors too often in the past.

Those are excellent points Harmony. I doubt many members would claim our leaders are infallible, yet there does seem to be a tendency towards being a cult of obedience, by some members, that has unfortunately been fostered by some leaders. Well here is the skinny: All of us make mistakes. We all offend others at some time or other. The point of the Church being a place to find the Gospel of Christ and to worship should not be under emphasized.

[_mms]

It is a sad thing. But it is fact of human nature. You are part of a tribe with strong views. We are the Only True and Living Church....so when one who has been such a strong part of the tribe falters it is a threat to the other tribe members. If indeed the Church is what it claims they would have to see you in some negative light in order to preserve their own position. There has to be something wrong with you. If you conclude that the Church is wrong and they do not you are not in tune with the spirit, the spirit has left you, or you maybe are sinning thus do not have the spirit-SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOU. If not then they would have to explore the possibility that the Church is not what it claims, their tribe has led them wrong....this is very hard and uncomfortable for people to do.

Ahhh...now you feel better, don't you? You've sided with the underdog; with the oppressed, repressed, suppressed, and depressed. You've encouraged his doubt and disorientation, and through recourse to a really quite strained analogy of the Church as a "tribe". As you lay the blame on the Church's internal culture for his doubts (hoping, it seems, to disabuse him of any inkling that the doubts could, in fact be a function of psychological, emotional, and spiritual dynamics underway within himself that are not so much about the Church as about his individual response to it), you reaffirm the re-framing of your own retreat from the Gospel as a reaction against deficiencies inherent the Church (as over against the possibility that it is really a reaction to the requirements of the Church, but that is another story)

As I've not mentioned it up to this point, mms, this is not the place to be if you really want to work through your doubts and concerns in a positive and productive way.

This is not the place.

Whoah . . . slow down there, Coggins. That is not AT ALL how I read that post. Man, some people are so absorbed in their "positions" around these message boards that it sometimes seems that they have lost any hope of being objective. Of course, that is my subjective opinion based on whatever "position" I may be thought to be taking at the moment.

I am not oppressed or repressed or whatever. In fact, with my education, the privileges afforded me by my professional achievements, an extremely healthy and happy marriage of many years, etc., I can hardly claim victim status (although, on some days throughout these relatively recent trials I seem to have tried). I do not see how Jason Bourne said anything to either encourage or discourage my doubts, but simply made some thoughtful points that seem to me not to have been taking any kind of "side", but to be stating the reality (as he sees it).

With respect to all, no one here or on MAD is going to have any real impact on me with regard to this struggle. Certainly, some arguments and positions will appeal to me and some will not, but I am not so fragile that the strongly worded positions and aggressive personalities will impact decisions so important to my life. If this were not the case, I would have left the Church already simply as a result of the utter dearth of any Christlike quality, and the overflowing abundance of bitterness and vitriol coming from Selek and Pahoran and their ilk at MAD. Thankfully, Selek and Pahoran (and some others) can claim to be faithful members of the Church while pushing people away from it on a daily basis, and I think no more or less of the truthfulness claims of the Church as a result.

[_Trevor]

What I feel is infinitely sad because the church has the potential to be something truly divine... but it isn't. Instead it is mundane, pedestrian, shallow. It should be leading the world and showing the world the benefits of living the gospel of Jesus Christ; it follows instead. It's faithful members should be so faithful they're almost translated; we aren't.

Infinitely sad, at the waste, the pettiness, the foolishness that passes for leadership in the church.

Sums up how I felt for a very long time.

[Aristotle Smith]

It is a sad thing. But it is fact of human nature. You are part of a tribe with strong views. We are the Only True and Living Church....so when one who has been such a strong part of the tribe falters it is a threat to the other tribe members. If indeed the Church is what it claims they would have to see you in some negative light in order to preserve their own position. There has to be something wrong with you. If you conclude that the Church is wrong and they do not you are not in tune with the spirit, the spirit has left you, or you maybe are sinning thus do not have the spirit-SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOU. If not then they would have to explore the possibility that the Church is not what it claims, their tribe has led them wrong....this is very hard and uncomfortable for people to do.

It is the age old question, "Who did sin, this man or his Gecko, that he lost his testimony"?

Many LDS members are unable to maintain relationships with other human beings, based soley on the level of their testimony. Its a clear sign that these members have a restricted social sphere in which they generally operate. People with a variety of friends, outside their own denomination, learn that intelligent and worthwhile individuals can be found from many backgrounds or belief systems. I think the unfortunate reality for many saints is that their communities can cause them to be victims of social incest.

[_Coggins7]

Whoah . . . slow down there, Coggins. That is not AT ALL how I read that post. Man, some people are so absorbed in their "positions" around these message boards that it sometimes seems that they have lost any hope of being objective. Of course, that is my subjective opinion based on whatever "position" I may be thought to be taking at the moment.

I am not oppressed or repressed or whatever. In fact, with my education, the privileges afforded me by my professional achievements, an extremely healthy and happy marriage of many years, etc., I can hardly claim victim status (although, on some days throughout these relatively recent trials I seem to have tried). I do not see how Jason Bourne said anything to either encourage or discourage my doubts, but simply made some thoughtful points that seem to me not to have been taking any kind of "side", but to be stating the reality (as he sees it).

With respect to all, no one here or on MAD is going to have any real impact on me with regard to this struggle. Certainly, some arguments and positions will appeal to me and some will not, but I am not so fragile that the strongly worded positions and aggressive personalities will impact decisions so important to my life. If this were not the case, I would have left the Church already simply as a result of the utter dearth of any Christlike quality, and the overflowing abundance of bitterness and vitriol coming from Selek and Pahoran and their ilk at MAD. Thankfully, Selek and Pahoran (and some others) can claim to be faithful members of the Church while pushing people away from it on a daily basis, and I think no more or less of the truthfulness claims of the Church as a result.

The post was aimed at Jason, not you. I don't know how you feel about things, and don't pretend to. Jason's foray into solidarity with those who have doubts about the Church is just standard for him. He rarely, if ever, will ask the doubter to question his doubt.

[_Coggins7]

It is the age old question, "Who did sin, this man or his Gecko, that he lost his testimony"?

Many LDS members are unable to maintain relationships with other human beings, based soley on the level of their testimony. Its a clear sign that these members have a restricted social sphere in which they generally operate. People with a variety of friends, outside their own denomination, learn that intelligent and worthwhile individuals can be found from many backgrounds or belief systems. I think the unfortunate reality for many saints is that their communities cause them to victims of social incest.

And your evidence for this is exactly what?