Todd Compton's Credo

[_mentalgymnast]

...I do not believe in the God of Mormonism either.

Hi TD, I know that you understand/believe that you don't have a corner on the market when it comes to things such as goodness, holiness, and virtue. You harp on these values so often though, as an unbeliever, that it would seem/appear that in your heart of hearts you believe that there might be some type of incongruency or disconnect between being good, being holy, being virtuous, and being Mormon.

Have I asked you what your beliefs are concerning God?

Is there a creator?

If so:

What is our connection/relationship with the creator?

What are the creator's characteristics of being and operation?

Will everyone return directly to the creator/heaven and from thenceforth and forever be one big happy family after death? Will everyone get along in peace, love, and goodness?

Regards,
MG

[_truth dancer]

Hi MG... :-)

Hi TD, I know that you understand/believe that you don't have a corner on the market when it comes to things such as goodness, holiness, and virtue. You harp on these values so often though, as an unbeliever, that it would seem/appear that in your heart of hearts you believe that there might be some type of incongruency or disconnect between being good, being holy, being virtuous, and being Mormon.

No, not at all.

For ME personally, yes. For others absolutely no. I believe most people are trying to find goodness in life. I just don't think the LDS church is the one and only way.... not by a long shot. many of its teachings do not give me peace or bring goodness into my life.

Have I asked you what your beliefs are concerning God?

Is there a creator?

If so:

What is our connection/relationship with the creator?

Briefly, (smile) I do not believe there is any remote possibility that the God of the LDS tradition is reality.

I think men (not women, in recorded history), over the years have created God in their image, anthropormorphized divinity/Source/Universe. "God" is a reflection of what these men have wanted God to be, in my opinion.

What are the creator's characteristics of being and operation?

I think our universe/Source is so far beyond what we can even possibly imagine that any little glimpse of divinity is but a speck of the magnitude and grandure that exists. Like an ant trying to imagine the internet. (smile) We certainly can experience some facets of the universe and can glimpse some dynamics of its workings but everything we can experience is only that which we have the ability to take in. In other words, our form is very limited and most certainly can glimpse just a tiny, tiny fraction of what there is to experience. I mean we only have a few senses that, amazing as they are, are pretty much nothing to what would be possible.

Will everyone return directly to the creator/heaven and from thenceforth and forever be one big happy family after death? Will everyone get along in peace, love, and goodness?

Is eternity/Universe/Infinite potentiality like our little primate world of a few thousand years? No... I truly do not think this could possibly be. It took nearly fourteen billion years to have humans emerge on the planet, we are only about half way through the life of our universe... I think there is MUCH more to come, not just on this earth but in our universe! To think we are the end all of everything just doesn't compute in my brain.

I do not remotely believe there is a creator like a human male in heaven, nor does the idea of spirits in human form behaving like humans seem a possibility. (It just plain doesn't make sense to me, nor does it feel holy.. TO ME. NOT saying I am right, just the way I see it).

We are new little creatures here, and to think that ETERNITY is a reflection of this little tiny speck of a moment in the development of our universe just really doesn't seem a possibility. As if the universe stops unfolding at this moment, or that evolution (I'm not just talking the evolution of the universe), is halted at the particular phase of its existence. Or that the universe is this amazing story but somehow the life of the human is not a part of it.

Much of religious writings, in my opinion, are based on a story/myth/"truth" that does not match with my experience of reality. (Again, I am not suggesting my experience is correct or right or good or anything like that... it is just MY personal experience).

I think eternity/Source/God/the Infinite is MUCH, MUCH more than we imagine. So, one big happy human family like those in 2007? No. God looking like human males of this millennia? Nope. One loving consciousness, one divine essence, perhaps. I believe the universe is one of transformation, always bringing forth suprises, and creations even more amazing than what previously emerged, so my "faith" is that there is something lovely, more amazing, more complete, more brilliant ahead. :-)

Just how I see it... NOT saying I'm right! ;-)

~dancer~

[_mentalgymnast]

I just don't think the LDS church is the one and only way.... not by a long shot.

Of course it's not. I guess I have to wonder why...when there are other ways and means to be happy...why do you then spend time here at all? Same thing with beastie and others. Who are you talking to? Are you preaching to the choir? If the LDS church isn't the only way to achieve happiness in this life and the purported life hereafter, why not spend the time spent here doing something else? Listening to the Click and Clack brothers doing their "Car Talk" show...or something else that's GOT to be more fun than continually defending your point of view around this place. If you're a computer geek, try YOU TUBE or Boing Boing or...whatever.

But, then again, what ever floats your boat. <g>

What is there to defend? You're RIGHT, there are other ways to happiness, achievement, and fulfillment. My suggestion is GO FOR IT!! Isn't this continual battle you're waging here against Mormonism basically a waste of time?

The reason I drop in every now and then is simply to let others know that there are those out there in cyberland, and living in the real world of ups and downs, controversies and issues, and have listened to and given serious thought to the concerns/issues that the dissaffected folks have...but come down on the side of faith/belief/hope.

I suppose we need to poke our head up every now and then and let others know that not everyone has left the church or become a cultural Mormon. <g>

Regards,
MG

[_harmony]

The reason I drop in every now and then is simply to let others know that there are those out there in cyberland, and living in the real world of ups and downs, controversies and issues, and have listened to and given serious thought to the concerns/issues that the dissaffected folks have...but come down on the side of faith/belief/hope.

Why do you pose this as if you are the one with faith and hope? Many of those who leave the church still have faith, belief, and hope. I think it would be more accurate to say that you come down on the side of the church, not that you come down on the side of faith/belief/hope. Just as the church does not equal God, so also does the church not equal faith, belief, and hope.

[_truth dancer]

Hi MG...

Of course it's not.

The leaders of your church say otherwise! ;-)

I guess I have to wonder why...when there are other ways and means to be happy...why do you then spend time here at all?

This is an odd statement MG. Playing on a MB really has nothing to do with happiness... a fun activity with friends, but not happiness. :-)

First, like many non-believers, I have family who are members. So long as I live I will be "attached" to Mormonism.

More importantly for me however... I find human belief one of the most interesting of all human traits. I am completely amazed and fascinated by it.. by myth, by our stories, by our cultures, by our neruology of belief. Mormonism happens to be the religion in which I am most familiar but, I am equally fascinated by beliefs of all types.

And, Mormonism is fascinating... it is like a good mystery novel filled with intrigue, danger, horrors, hope, complex characters, deception, fears, sexual exploits, the yearning of the human heart, desire for salvation, etc. etc. etc. It covers a lot of ground... :-)

Add to that, that many here are friends... I enjoy the conversation, the insights, the ideas, the personality.

Same thing with beastie and others. Who are you talking to?

Each other..... whomever is here. We have enjoyable conversations which I can't have in "real life." Think of it as friends getting together and discussing their lives and ideas. We just don't all live in the same neighborhood!

Are you preaching to the choir?

Not preaching to anyone... Hmmm funny that you think this MB is to preach to someone. More like sharing ideas, exploring various thoughts, having some fun.

If the LDS church isn't the only way to achieve happiness in this life and the purported life hereafter, why not spend the time spent here doing something else?

Again, playing on a message board has nothing to do with happiness. We have conversation that I can't have anywhere else....if can be fun.

What is there to defend? You're RIGHT, there are other ways to happiness, achievement, and fulfillment.

As I said MG, you leaders say otherwise! ;-)

My suggestion is GO FOR IT!!

I have... thanks for the encouragment! :-)

Isn't this continual battle you're waging here against Mormonism basically a waste of time?

Wow... I do not see any battle at all. I'm thinking this "battle" idea comes from the LDS belief that there is a battle going on between God and Satan?

Discussing Mormonism, belief, our experiences, our ideas, our journey isn't a waste of time for me. I find it utterly fascinating, to say the least.

The reason I drop in every now and then is simply to let others know that there are those out there in cyberland, and living in the real world of ups and downs, controversies and issues, and have listened to and given serious thought to the concerns/issues that the dissaffected folks have...but come down on the side of faith/belief/hope.

Yes there are different ways of managing and coping with the issues... this is one of the dynamics of belief that intrigues me. :-) There is so much to belief... our brains are miraculous and I can't get over the whole process and how our culture, personal traits, fears, needs, teachings, contribute to what ultimate we understand as true. Seriously this AMAZES me!

Warmest wishes to you,

~dancer~

[_beastie]

MG -

I see thoughts such as yours expressed frequently, which is that posters critical of Mormonism who participate on online forums on the topic are somehow wasting their time, and are not fully engaging in a happy life. I don't know how to say this in a nice way - this idea is utter nonsense. To me, it looks like just one more time (of many) when Mormons presume that they know the "best" way to live and then tell others what to do.

How in the world do you know what brings other people happiness and contentment? Why is this hobby conter-productive to a happy life, when other hobbies (that appear quite pointless to others) are "good"? Are you sure this isn't really about YOUR own comfort level, versus other people's happiness?

[_mentalgymnast]

The reason I drop in every now and then is simply to let others know that there are those out there in cyberland, and living in the real world of ups and downs, controversies and issues, and have listened to and given serious thought to the concerns/issues that the dissaffected folks have...but come down on the side of faith/belief/hope.

Why do you pose this as if you are the one with faith and hope? Many of those who leave the church still have faith, belief, and hope. I think it would be more accurate to say that you come down on the side of the church, not that you come down on the side of faith/belief/hope. Just as the church does not equal God, so also does the church not equal faith, belief, and hope.

It would be accurate to say that I come down on the side of faith/belief/hope in the reality of the restoration. I don't have faith/belief/hope in the church being perfect in all respects. Afterall, it's made up of humans.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

MG -

... To me, it looks like just one more time (of many) when Mormons presume that they know the "best" way to live and then tell others what to do.

That's the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying, again, that there are many ways to a happy life. Mormonism included. There are only "best ways" for each individual. I can't presume to tell you that life in the LDS church is the only way for you or TD to be happy.

I wouldn't do so. Have I done so?

How in the world do you know what brings other people happiness and contentment?

I suppose I'm simply trying to understand how happiness can result in spending time criticising a belief system that brings so much happiness to so many. Why try and say things that would turn lurkers and others away from the Mormon church? Why does this activity bring you happiness and contentment?

Why is this hobby counter-productive to a happy life, when other hobbies (that appear quite pointless to others) are "good"?

Because it may be counter-productive to a happy life for others in whom's minds you plant the seeds of doubt rather than seeds of hope and faith. Why would this "hobby" bring a sense of personal happiness to you?

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

...Mormonism is fascinating... it is like a good mystery novel filled with intrigue, danger, horrors, hope, complex characters, deception, fears, sexual exploits, the yearning of the human heart, desire for salvation, etc. etc. etc. It covers a lot of ground...

As I've mentioned here before, the church is the perfect laboratory for maximum development of the human soul. For this to happen, all of the things you mention above have to come into play. If the church was a perfect organization with no warts/imperfections and no opportunity for experimentation, the laboratory effect would be lost.

When Father Lehi said there “must needs be … opposition in all things” (2 Ne. 2:11), he spoke not merely of the need for choice and agency, but of the way opposing forces combine to give meaning to righteous choices. Without the taste of bitter in our experience, the taste of sweet is lost on us. We are without context, without a frame of reference, and even the sweet things of life are without meaning and purpose. Mortality presents us with a “compound in one,” a deliberate mixing of righteousness and temptation, holiness and misery, without which there could be “no purpose in the end of [life’s] creation.” (2 Ne. 2:11–12.)

Some of life’s most difficult challenges can come when opposition rears its ugly head in places where we don’t expect it...

Including, I might say, within the church.

Regards,
MG

[_truth dancer]

Hi MG...

I suppose I'm simply trying to understand how happiness can result in spending time criticising a belief system that brings so much happiness to so many. Why try and say things that would turn lurkers and others away from the Mormon church? Why does this activity bring you happiness and contentment?

As I said, playing on a MB, discussing common interests with friends isn't really about finding inner peace, enlightenment or ultimate happiness. :-) It is about sharing, conversing, having an intriguing hobby.

Having said this... I do think there is value in letting those who are struggling with belief to know there are others who understand where they are, and who have gone through the process of disbelief.

I know for many years I thought I was the only one who struggled with some of the issues.... I had virtually NO one to talk to. It was a difficult time for me.

My personal approach is... if someone wants to stay a member, don't get into the issues, stop looking, searching, or wondering, (shift the paradigm, expand the box, etc... smile). I totally support those who find happiness in the LDS church and want to remain a believer. I also support those who do not want to remain living in what they consider untruth.

I think most members who discover some issues know how to keep their testimony if they want to. They have tons of support, encouragment, and leaders to tell them what to do. But those who are struggling and want to know the full story are in a difficult place full of uncertainty, sometimes fear, often with very significant challenges ahead. I think it is valuable for them to know that others have moved on and are happy, content, and living a very wonderful life full of peace and happiness.

The bottom line is... what happens is up the individual and what they want.

You are here for those who want to remain a believer... others including me are here for those who want to let go.

I guess we both should stay! :-)

~dancer~