Look at where Dr. Gee has been!

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_Pokatator
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Re: Look at where Dr. Gee has been!

Post by _Pokatator »

charity wrote:The annual joint meeting of the American Academy or Religion and the Society of Biblical Literature (and affiliated organizations), just concluded in San Diego.

And lo and behold, look at one of the listings.

MONDAY 11/19, 1pm – 3:30pm (Location: 31 A – CC)
Assyriology and the Bible Section (S19-55)
John Gee, “An Egyptian Version of the Atrahasis?”

So Dr. Gee is not a respected scholar in his field and by his peers? Yeah, right.

I searched the whole program and couldn't find a listing for a Kevin Graham or a Brent Metcalfe. Did I miss something? Or maybe these people who like to take such pot shorts at Dr. Gee don't move in the same august circles as Dr. Gee and these society academicians.


The latest neener neener neener from Charity!

I'm willing to wait a long time, forever, if necessary to see Gee stand in line right behind DCP at the "The annual joint meeting of the American Academy or Religion and the Society of Biblical Literature (and affiliated organizations)" and bare their testimonies.

Charity, I'm sorry you can't get it but they both have dual lives, one for those people and those organizations and another for everything Mormon and FARMS and etc.
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
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_aussieguy55
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Book of Abraham no longer part of canon

Post by _aussieguy55 »

What would be the fallout if the Book of Abraham was abandoned by the LDS Church as scripture?
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Re: Book of Abraham no longer part of canon

Post by _BishopRic »

aussieguy55 wrote:What would be the fallout if the Book of Abraham was abandoned by the LDS Church as scripture?


"It was always understood by the LDS church that Joseph Smith did the best he could to translate the papyrus into what Abraham would have said. It was only his opinion, and after continued prayer and revelation, we now understand it to be "among" many things he wrote that might have meaning to some members, but not all. Like the Lamanites being "among" the ancestors of some Native Americans (we can't find them yet...), we are certain "some" members might benefit from the Book of Abraham. Pray, pay and obey, and you will know who you are."

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_Trevor
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Re: Book of Abraham no longer part of canon

Post by _Trevor »

aussieguy55 wrote:What would be the fallout if the Book of Abraham was abandoned by the LDS Church as scripture?


There is a difference between acknowledging that the Book of Abraham is not an ancient text and abandoning it. Likewise with the Book of Mormon. The irony about Joseph Smith's translations is that they are no different in the end from his other revelations. If one considers Joseph Smith to have been a prophet, then it should not matter whether his translations are his work or ancient texts. The preoccupation with the antiquity and authorship of these works is, in my opinion, somewhat silly, since antiquity does not insure truth and the same goes for authorship.

Look at the Bible. Its books are old, yes, but many of them date to different periods than the ones claimed by the texts and we have little or no idea of who actually wrote many of them. Why should Joseph Smith's pseudepigrapha be at any disadvantage next to the pseudepigrapha that makes up much of the Bible? Why should LDS people be embarrassed by it?

The only reason I can think is that they (LDS people) accept the bogus beliefs that many unlearned or unreasonable fundamentalists have concerning the Bible, which by virtue of its great age (and little more) is considered to be the standard for truth. It hardly deserves the honor.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_charity
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Post by _charity »

beastie wrote:Charity,

You never directly answered this:

You did not directly address my point. Is or is it not necessary to be an egyptologist in order to comment on whether or not the papryii were the source of the Book of Abraham, and what the origin and role of the KEP was?


When questions about Egyptian practice, cultural or art have some relevance, yes.

Edited to add an example, in case you didn't know what I meant. So some Egyptologists have made statements that the facsimilie is not "translated" correctly. A (****) always means this, and a(@@@@) always means something else. And that isn't what the Book of Abraham says.

But when an Egyptologist says it was common practice for one figure to have several meanings, one of which could corespond to one of the "translations" then that would be pertinent.
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Post by _Runtu »

charity wrote:When questions about Egyptian practice, cultural or art have some relevance, yes.

Edited to add an example, in case you didn't know what I meant. So some Egyptologists have made statements that the facsimilie is not "translated" correctly. A (****) always means this, and a(@@@@) always means something else. And that isn't what the Book of Abraham says.

But when an Egyptologist says it was common practice for one figure to have several meanings, one of which could corespond to one of the "translations" then that would be pertinent.


Are there any non-LDS Egyptologists who say that Joseph's translation of the facsimiles, etc., corresponds to a known use of the figures? Or is this Book of Breathings unique in its contents?
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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

When questions about Egyptian practice, cultural or art have some relevance, yes.

Edited to add an example, in case you didn't know what I meant. So some Egyptologists have made statements that the facsimilie is not "translated" correctly. A (****) always means this, and a(@@@@) always means something else. And that isn't what the Book of Abraham says.

But when an Egyptologist says it was common practice for one figure to have several meanings, one of which could corespond to one of the "translations" then that would be pertinent.


Thank you for the direct answer. I have a couple of comments.

One, since I have not followed Book of Abraham apologia carefully, I haven't read all of Kevin's commentary on the subject. But the vast majority of his commentary that I have read is not dealing with the specifics of translation (in the traditional sense of the word, not how you use it), or cultural or artistic elements. Instead, he is dealing with the practical issue of whether or not the papyrii that we have is the same papyrii that was used to produce the Book of Abraham, and whether or not Joseph Smith used the KEP to translate said document.

Can you agree with me that, in regards to this specific point, it is not necessary to be an Eygptologist, and, instead, it is only necessary to have thoroughly studied the documents along with the contemporary statements made about those documents?

Second - it is possible to attain an adequate level of lay-person knowledge in order to be able to evaluate the strength of certain claims. If one studies the writings of the people who are experts in the field, one can get a sense of when an individual - even if that individual is also an expert - is making a claim that the mainstream experts would reject. A simple example, regarding my favorite subject, Mesoamerica. If someone has read books and essays on how the ancient Mesoamericans engaged in warfare, then one can have a good sense of what the Mesoamerican experts say on the subject. So when someone who is also an expert in Mesoamerica, like John Clark, makes a statement such as the warfare in ancient Mesoamerica matches what is described in the Book of Mormon, that lay person, such as myself, can recognize that this is not a statement that the mainstream experts would agree upon. (and, in fact, in our correspondence Dr. Clark admitting to oversimplifying the issue and making statements that his peers would not condone)

Remember the conditions for the logical fallacy of an appeal to authority. The person must not just be a qualified expert in the field in question, but also:

3.There is an adequate degree of agreement among the other experts in the subject in question.

4. The person in question is not significantly biased.


LDS apologists, by definition, are significantly biased. I know you will protest this, but it is true by definition. They are biased because the entire purpose of apologia is to defend the faith. Hence, the conclusion was reached a priori. In addition, when dealing with the very issues that cause trouble for the faith, they have gone outside an area of "adequate degree of agreement among the other experts in the subject." So while John Clark and Brant Gardner may agree that the warfare in the Book of Mormon matches ancient Mesoamerica, you're not going to find other experts who would agree.
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Post by _truth dancer »

But when an Egyptologist says it was common practice for one figure to have several meanings, one of which could corespond to one of the "translations" then that would be pertinent.


This is such a silly argument. As if any Egyptian character can mean whatever one wants it to mean. Laughable!

Lets see how this would go over at a scholarly conference! ;-)

Some time ago, on ZLMB., we had a lengthy discussion on this topic... I asked for one example where Anubis was something other than the traditional jackal-headed guard of the dead. No one could offer even one example... because there isn't one.

This idea is just plain silliness.

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

When questions about Egyptian practice, cultural or art have some relevance, yes.


Such as? You don't even know. You're just talking out of your butt as usual.
The fact is, on every Egyptological point that has any relevance, we have Egyptologists more experienced than Gee who disagree.

Edited to add an example, in case you didn't know what I meant. So some Egyptologists have made statements that the facsimilie is not "translated" correctly. A (****) always means this, and a(@@@@) always means something else. And that isn't what the Book of Abraham says.


This isn't an example at all. It is a straw man. Provide a specific example where the critical argument depends on a particular Egyptian character meaning X whereas John Gee says it can actually mean Y.

We both know you won't becuase you can't. You're talking out of your butt as usual. You are proving to us that yor only familiarity with the critical viewpoint, is that which is fed to you through Nibley articles.

But when an Egyptologist says it was common practice for one figure to have several meanings, one of which could corespond to one of the "translations" then that would be pertinent.


No specific examples again? Provide at least one. But you don't know of one, becausae you're still talking out of your butt.

The fact is Egyptological expertise is irrelevant at this point. Gee as a historian is what you're left with. It is his lame attempts to recreate history to create a plausibility scenario for missing source document. But as CK already demonstrated, Gee flat out lies with regards to pertinent historical references. He is dishonest. Period. When asked to explain his dishonesty you give us this crap about how it isn't your job to defend him. Are you too sytupid to see you already are defending him? You just don't have the intellectual stamina, nor the necessary knowledge to follow through with this argument, same as you fail in virtually every subject you try to engage.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

When questions about Egyptian practice, cultural or art have some relevance, yes.


Such as? You don't even know. You're just talking out of your butt as usual.

The fact is, on every Egyptological point that has any relevance, we have Egyptologists more experienced than Gee who disagree (i.e. original length of the scroll)

Edited to add an example, in case you didn't know what I meant. So some Egyptologists have made statements that the facsimilie is not "translated" correctly. A (****) always means this, and a(@@@@) always means something else. And that isn't what the Book of Abraham says.


This isn't an example at all. It is a straw man. Provide a specific example where the critical argument depends on a particular Egyptian character meaning X whereas John Gee says it can actually mean Y.

We both know you won't becuase you can't. You're talking out of your butt as usual. You are proving to us that your only familiarity with the critical viewpoint, is that which is fed to you through Nibley articles.

But when an Egyptologist says it was common practice for one figure to have several meanings, one of which could corespond to one of the "translations" then that would be pertinent.


No specific examples again? Provide at least one. But you don't know of one, becausae you're still talking out of your butt.

The fact is Egyptological expertise is irrelevant at this point. Gee as a historian is what you're left with. It is his lame attempts to recreate history to create a plausibility scenario for missing source document. But as CK already demonstrated, Gee flat out lies with regards to pertinent historical references. He is dishonest. Period. When asked to explain his dishonesty you give us this crap about how it isn't your job to defend him. Are you too sytupid to see you already are defending him? You just don't have the intellectual stamina, nor the necessary knowledge to follow through with this argument, same as you fail in virtually every subject you try to engage.

This is why discourse with you has already been a fruitless endeavor. Not only here, but at MAD as well.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
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