Significant Questions of Belief

[_Gazelam]

Roger,

Our posts got a bit messy. Could you please restate your question to me?

Gaz

[_harmony]

Noah appeared to other prophets under the name of Gabriel. As this messenger he appeared to Joseph Smith and bestowed keys of his dispensation.

Gabriel also appeared to Daniel (Dan. 8:16, 9:21), Zacharias the father of John the Baptist (Luke 1:5-38) And to Mary, the mother of our Lord (ibid.)

Christ no doubt knew Noah firsthand, and could therefore testify of him. At the least, his own mother could testify of Noah to him.

Wow, what did Noah do that was so awful that he was busted back to being an angel, instead of being exalted to being a god?

[_Gazelam]

Harmony,

I agree that the Bible, mostly the Old Testament, is myth. Myths have great worth to us, but they cannot take the place of history, and that is the crime that is associated with the Bible: myth is mistaken for history. Just because words are ancient doesn't make them right, doesn't make them accurate, and sure as heck doesn't mean they are accurate renditions of something that actually happened. The day the TRI revolves around the Flood or the Garden is the day I have to give mine back. I can live with myth; I cannot live myth.

How does your statement work when compared to the geneologies found throughout the scriptures?

Is this all just made up as well?: http://www.d.umn.edu/~jbelote/bible2.html

Noah
|
Shem-->Eber-->Terah
|
--------------|----
| | |
Abram Nahor Haran
| |
|--------| Lot
Isaac Ishmael |-------------------
| | | |
|------| |--->Arabs<-----Moab Ammon
Jacob Esau |
| |------->Arabs<----------------
|
Israelites & Jews

[_Gazelam]

Noah appeared to other prophets under the name of Gabriel. As this messenger he appeared to Joseph Smith and bestowed keys of his dispensation.

Gabriel also appeared to Daniel (Dan. 8:16, 9:21), Zacharias the father of John the Baptist (Luke 1:5-38) And to Mary, the mother of our Lord (ibid.)

Christ no doubt knew Noah firsthand, and could therefore testify of him. At the least, his own mother could testify of Noah to him.

Wow, what did Noah do that was so awful that he was busted back to being an angel, instead of being exalted to being a god?

I was unaware that the day of judgement and exaltation had occured.

[_harmony]

I was unaware that the day of judgement and exaltation had occured.

How did he get to be an angel, if he hasn't already been judged? Consistency, Gaz! C'mon!

[_harmony]

Harmony,

I agree that the Bible, mostly the Old Testament, is myth. Myths have great worth to us, but they cannot take the place of history, and that is the crime that is associated with the Bible: myth is mistaken for history. Just because words are ancient doesn't make them right, doesn't make them accurate, and sure as heck doesn't mean they are accurate renditions of something that actually happened. The day the TRI revolves around the Flood or the Garden is the day I have to give mine back. I can live with myth; I cannot live myth.

How does your statement work when compared to the geneologies found throughout the scriptures?

Is this all just made up as well?: http://www.d.umn.edu/~jbelote/bible2.html

Noah
|
Shem-->Eber-->Terah
|
--------------|----
| | |
Abram Nahor Haran
| |
|--------| Lot
Isaac Ishmael |-------------------
| | | |
|------| |--->Arabs<-----Moab Ammon
Jacob Esau |
| |------->Arabs<----------------
|
Israelites & Jews

First, you have to prove that Abraham existed. Scholars have been trying to do that for centuries... unsuccessfully.

[_Gazelam]

Do the Twelve tribes of Israel exist?

Also, to repeat the answer I offered in the Celestial :

Harmony,

#1. please prove that Abraham actually lived.

John 8:56-59
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

So does your thimbleful of faith have room for Christ not being a liar?

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Harmony, i'll inject in bold to your questions...

A just, and honest distribution of world resources (and wealth) to those in need from those who greed, is THE only enlightened answer to the problems Jesus addressed that WE continue to ignore, and deny having any responsibility for. As I see it... Warm regards, Roger

A couple of observations:

1. All things being equal, I have no problem sharing the world's resources with everyone. The sun shines equally on the just and the unjust. I do object to sharing the wealth without caveat. Wealth is earned (or taken... that which is taken should definitely be shared). When a person works to accummulate wealth, and then is required to share it with those who don't work out of laziness or poor choices, that's not fair. The resources are for everyone, but that which a person earns through their own endeavors should not be required to be shared. If a person has sacrificed in order to gain an education, they should be able to enjoy the fruits of the labor that education affords them without having to give it away to those who chose to not get that education. DCP should not have to share the fruits of his education with me, since I made the decision to not pursue the same education he did. If he chooses to share, and he chooses with whom he will share, that is one thing; to be required to share doesn't seem fair to me.

RM: I repectfully suggest your expressed attitude towards "...earned wealth...laziness & poor choices..." are learned, in an environment that tends to justify wealth/riches, and i'll include power, of those who have such, with little regard of those who don't, generally speaking. I point out, this is contrary to Jesus' teaching that "...the greatest will be servants, not masters, of all..." (Marx stated the same sentiment: "...from those who can/have to those who can't/haven't..." I know i'm on thin ice here, and i do not want to get into politics--PLLLease :-)

Understand as well, I AM NOT TALKING individuals here, and their need to reform. The die was cast, unfortunately centuries ago, from which our caste systems were/are molded to serve the elites of each and every nation since ??? As it is. Does not mean, 'as it should be.' Can you/anyone entertain that thought without conditioned prejudice disclaiming its reality?

It was into such a world that Jesus was born, lived, taught and died. In parable after parable he referred to wealth and power as rewards for serving Mammon. He was supposedly tempted in all such rewards. To which he answered, "...get behind me..." Jesus taught how to prosper together, cooperatively, a new method/means of group sufficiency--"that none would hunger..."

Such teaching was not to find acceptance in The Church that was legalized and normalized to accomodate monarchies and aristocracies under any name or banner that followed the 4th century. I am always astounded by "Christian" defence of "Mammon"??

2. At no point is there ever going to be a just and honest distribution. There is simply no one capable of making those decisions; we are all biased.

RM: "Oh ye of little faith..." :-) We simply have to reform, and reassess our "biases". Again, I'm always astounded when i hear "Christians" who profess to believe in miracles and fantacies, resurection etal think it impossible for humanity to solve their problems. It can be done. It is being done by secular non-denominationals and NGOs around the world. Ya been listening to the wrong prophets.... The Universe might be in the hands of "God". Humanity and its affairs are unquestionably in the hands of "Homosaps" :-)

3. I agree that the Bible, mostly the Old Testament, is myth. Myths have great worth to us, but they cannot take the place of history, and that is the crime that is associated with the Bible: myth is mistaken for history. Just because words are ancient doesn't make them right, doesn't make them accurate, and sure as heck doesn't mean they are accurate renditions of something that actually happened. The day the TRI revolves around the Flood or the Garden is the day I have to give mine back. I can live with myth; I cannot live myth.

"TRI"?? What's that? Do you think you are NOT living myth? Paraphrasing E.B. Browning, "Let me count the ways..." Warm regards, Roger

[_BishopRic]

3. I agree that the Bible, mostly the Old Testament, is myth. Myths have great worth to us, but they cannot take the place of history, and that is the crime that is associated with the Bible: myth is mistaken for history. Just because words are ancient doesn't make them right, doesn't make them accurate, and sure as heck doesn't mean they are accurate renditions of something that actually happened. The day the TRI revolves around the Flood or the Garden is the day I have to give mine back. I can live with myth; I cannot live myth.

I'd like to respond to this thread by giving my two cents here. I like this post by Harmony. I'm also pretty much on the same page as Truth Dancer, Roger, and others. I do find it interesting to read the posts on this thread, and sense a very disparate approach to the questions, depending on the conviction of the poster. In other words, "scripture" seems to be viewed by each as either:

1) historically accurate (mostly)..."as far as it is translated correctly;" ie, it all happened, but a few words might be incorrect; and because it is canonized scripture, the men that claim to have talked to, or been inspired by God are telling the truth; or

2) stories, myths, parables, allegories, etc...that have been written by various men, many "borrowed" from earlier traditions and mythologies, adopted to fit the audience for which it is intended, based on some historical events and people, and certainly written and compiled for purposes of political power and control.

As Christian author and speaker Marcus Borg says, "the Bible is true, and some of it happened."

As I transitioned out of Mormonism I came to question all "scripture." Like others here, I studied Joseph Campbell and others that show the clear similarities between earlier Greek, Pagan, and other mythologies to today's Christianities.

So unlike Gaz, I view the words written in the Bible from a historical perspective of "what and why was this written this way?" Because there are many possible answers, I am intrigued by the evolution of religious mythology, but choose to be inspired by the stories...no matter their origin.

Rather than feeling the need to "know," I am content to have an attitude of uncertainty about most matters of spirit. In fact, there is a definite joy in curiousity. I feel no compulsion to follow any of the rules presented as a means to a better life hereafter. I try to live the Golden Rule, and it seems to cover all bases for a happy and peaceful life here and now...of that much I am certain.

[_Gazelam]

BishopRic,

Care to tackle the twelve questions? Love to get your two cents on those.

Gaz