Todd Compton's Credo
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MG,
I wasn't saying that you were telling me that I had to go back to church to be happy. You were saying that critics, if they want a happy life themselves, should not be spending time debating Mormonism on boards such as this. That is still telling me how I should be living.
My view is similar to TD's. I don't seek out Mormons to discuss these issues, either in real life or on the internet. I would never, never intrude on a board or chat intended for LDS only.
I participate on boards that are designed for both believers and nonbelievers, where these topics are being discussed. I assume that people come to these sort of boards to find information, to help them make decisions about their lives and Mormonism. For you to state that critics are going to make people unhappy with their participation, and hence, this cannot be a productive hobby is so utterly biased and prejudiced towards the LDS church being what it claims to be that I would have thought you would recognize your own bias.
Would you say the same thing about anything OTHER than the Mormon church? Should critics of scientology remain silent, because their criticism might upset some believers, and might even cause a loss of faith?
in my opinion - when people actively seek out information about a topic, they ought to be able to access reliable information from all angles. It is patronizing of anyone to wish that information would remain hidden from adults seeking it, and if critics were to be silent, as so many Mormons seem to desire, that would be the ultimate result.
I'll be frank. I am sick and tired of believers trying to shame critics into silence.
I wasn't saying that you were telling me that I had to go back to church to be happy. You were saying that critics, if they want a happy life themselves, should not be spending time debating Mormonism on boards such as this. That is still telling me how I should be living.
My view is similar to TD's. I don't seek out Mormons to discuss these issues, either in real life or on the internet. I would never, never intrude on a board or chat intended for LDS only.
I participate on boards that are designed for both believers and nonbelievers, where these topics are being discussed. I assume that people come to these sort of boards to find information, to help them make decisions about their lives and Mormonism. For you to state that critics are going to make people unhappy with their participation, and hence, this cannot be a productive hobby is so utterly biased and prejudiced towards the LDS church being what it claims to be that I would have thought you would recognize your own bias.
Would you say the same thing about anything OTHER than the Mormon church? Should critics of scientology remain silent, because their criticism might upset some believers, and might even cause a loss of faith?
in my opinion - when people actively seek out information about a topic, they ought to be able to access reliable information from all angles. It is patronizing of anyone to wish that information would remain hidden from adults seeking it, and if critics were to be silent, as so many Mormons seem to desire, that would be the ultimate result.
I'll be frank. I am sick and tired of believers trying to shame critics into silence.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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And, by the way, TD is absolutely right - losing faith in Mormonism, or even just struggling with private doubts, can be lonely and frightening. It would have meant the world to me to have found a place like this back when I was working things through, and feeling so alone. I was so desperate to talk to someone that might understand that I actually wrote a letter to the EV exmormon who had authored a book, despite not believing the EV theology. I so, so much wanted to talk to someone else going through what I was going through. Do you imagine that someone struggling with doubts can confide to people at church??? Doubt is feared in the Mormon church, and hidden in shame.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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MG wrote
That's your opinion MG, but what evidence do you have on which to base that very general assumption. It may well be that the LDS church is the place where you feel that you can progress the most in all areas of your life, spiritual, intellectual, physical, social and emotional.
For countless billions who have lived, are living and will live, that statement however, is just not true. On all developmental levels aforementioned the church poses significant obstacles to real growth in my opinion. Socially, intellectually, spiritually and emotionally.
Your general statement comes across as naïve and arrogant, if you don't mind me saying...however, it is an attitude that seems common if not typical among many in the LDS community.
MG, I appreciate from your remarks that you recognise that the LDS community is not perfect on any level....and that you allude to this with your 'laboratory' use. I don't know though....Isn't it more like the blind leading the blind??? A false history, and false idea, a false theology,....is still...well...false...
and based on your logic of the necessity for imperfections in the organisation in order to produce the laboratory approach, then I would argue that life pure and simple gives you alll that, without even the need for organised religion...
Maybe I'm misinterpreting you???
Mary
As I've mentioned here before, the church is the perfect laboratory for maximum development of the human soul.
That's your opinion MG, but what evidence do you have on which to base that very general assumption. It may well be that the LDS church is the place where you feel that you can progress the most in all areas of your life, spiritual, intellectual, physical, social and emotional.
For countless billions who have lived, are living and will live, that statement however, is just not true. On all developmental levels aforementioned the church poses significant obstacles to real growth in my opinion. Socially, intellectually, spiritually and emotionally.
Your general statement comes across as naïve and arrogant, if you don't mind me saying...however, it is an attitude that seems common if not typical among many in the LDS community.
MG, I appreciate from your remarks that you recognise that the LDS community is not perfect on any level....and that you allude to this with your 'laboratory' use. I don't know though....Isn't it more like the blind leading the blind??? A false history, and false idea, a false theology,....is still...well...false...
and based on your logic of the necessity for imperfections in the organisation in order to produce the laboratory approach, then I would argue that life pure and simple gives you alll that, without even the need for organised religion...
Maybe I'm misinterpreting you???
Mary
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Good point, Mary.
In my experience, the LDS church can be a "good fit" for certain individuals. My parents, for example, fit within the LDS paradigm and culture quite well, my father in particular. He's a successful, retired, white American businessman, raised in a culture that matched the LDS culture in many aspects. A perfect fit.
My sister, on the other hand, while continuing activity, is not a "good fit" and is an unhappy Mormon. She is an extremely intelligent female who tends to be opinionated. Whoops, kiss of death in a patriarchal culture such as Mormonism. Mormon leaders have consistently appealed to her husband as "their" joint authority rather than addressing her directly on specific issues. She has done her best to be happy as a Mormon, even to the point of refusing to read any material addressing controversial issues in church history that once caused her pain and immersing herself totally in FARMish apologia. (she did so because she believed if she left the church, her marriage would fall apart and her children would hate her) But she just doesn't fit the culture.
Now imagine even more extreme examples - such as a gay person. Or a minority. Would you blithely assert that the LDS church is a "perfect laboratory" for individuals such as this?
in my opinion - if you grew up LDS, and it's an important part of your family dynamics, and you happen to "fit" well within the culture, well, you're lucky. Bully for you. But please remember there are many who do not find the LDS culture such a fine fit, and whose spirits and minds are in angst over the conflicts.
In my experience, the LDS church can be a "good fit" for certain individuals. My parents, for example, fit within the LDS paradigm and culture quite well, my father in particular. He's a successful, retired, white American businessman, raised in a culture that matched the LDS culture in many aspects. A perfect fit.
My sister, on the other hand, while continuing activity, is not a "good fit" and is an unhappy Mormon. She is an extremely intelligent female who tends to be opinionated. Whoops, kiss of death in a patriarchal culture such as Mormonism. Mormon leaders have consistently appealed to her husband as "their" joint authority rather than addressing her directly on specific issues. She has done her best to be happy as a Mormon, even to the point of refusing to read any material addressing controversial issues in church history that once caused her pain and immersing herself totally in FARMish apologia. (she did so because she believed if she left the church, her marriage would fall apart and her children would hate her) But she just doesn't fit the culture.
Now imagine even more extreme examples - such as a gay person. Or a minority. Would you blithely assert that the LDS church is a "perfect laboratory" for individuals such as this?
in my opinion - if you grew up LDS, and it's an important part of your family dynamics, and you happen to "fit" well within the culture, well, you're lucky. Bully for you. But please remember there are many who do not find the LDS culture such a fine fit, and whose spirits and minds are in angst over the conflicts.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
truth dancer wrote:Hi MG...I suppose I'm simply trying to understand how happiness can result in spending time criticising a belief system that brings so much happiness to so many. Why try and say things that would turn lurkers and others away from the Mormon church? Why does this activity bring you happiness and contentment?
As I said, playing on a MB, discussing common interests with friends isn't really about finding inner peace, enlightenment or ultimate happiness. :-) It is about sharing, conversing, having an intriguing hobby.
Having said this... I do think there is value in letting those who are struggling with belief to know there are others who understand where they are, and who have gone through the process of disbelief.
I know for many years I thought I was the only one who struggled with some of the issues.... I had virtually NO one to talk to. It was a difficult time for me.
Been there, done that. For part of this period I was serving as an Elder's Quorum President. I was active on the mormon-l BB at the time. Just so happened that one of the participants on this list was also in my elder's quorum. He was way out there in his views. He was the only one I could talk to. How crazy is that?
My personal approach is... if someone wants to stay a member, don't get into the issues, stop looking, searching, or wondering, (shift the paradigm, expand the box, etc... smile).
Sooner or later the issues are going to come up although it is not too hard to put one's head in the sand and ignore it. Shifting pardigms and expanding the box is a healthy response, in my opinion. There is no option but to do so. If this isn't done, then a member is going to have a rough go of it.
I totally support those who find happiness in the LDS church and want to remain a believer. I also support those who do not want to remain living in what they consider untruth.
Agreed.
I think most members who discover some issues know how to keep their testimony if they want to. They have tons of support, encouragment, and leaders to tell them what to do.
Support, encouragement, and leaders have played very little role in my personal journey. I've been on my own. I did have my SP say, "Good luck on this path/journey, it's a personal one you have to travel" or something to that effect. He was very understanding. Beyond that, it's been a very personal and isolated journey for the most part.
But those who are struggling and want to know the full story are in a difficult place full of uncertainty, sometimes fear, often with very significant challenges ahead. I think it is valuable for them to know that others have moved on and are happy, content, and living a very wonderful life full of peace and happiness.
Yes, that's true. It's also important for them to know that it is possible for them to remain in the church in good conscience.
The bottom line is... what happens is up the individual and what they want.
You are here for those who want to remain a believer... others including me are here for those who want to let go.
I guess we both should stay! :-)
Fair enough!
Regards,
MG
beastie wrote:MG,
I wasn't saying that you were telling me that I had to go back to church to be happy. You were saying that critics, if they want a happy life themselves, should not be spending time debating Mormonism on boards such as this. That is still telling me how I should be living.
My view is similar to TD's. I don't seek out Mormons to discuss these issues, either in real life or on the internet. I would never, never intrude on a board or chat intended for LDS only.
I participate on boards that are designed for both believers and nonbelievers, where these topics are being discussed. I assume that people come to these sort of boards to find information, to help them make decisions about their lives and Mormonism. For you to state that critics are going to make people unhappy with their participation, and hence, this cannot be a productive hobby is so utterly biased and prejudiced towards the LDS church being what it claims to be that I would have thought you would recognize your own bias.
Would you say the same thing about anything OTHER than the Mormon church? Should critics of scientology remain silent, because their criticism might upset some believers, and might even cause a loss of faith?
in my opinion - when people actively seek out information about a topic, they ought to be able to access reliable information from all angles. It is patronizing of anyone to wish that information would remain hidden from adults seeking it, and if critics were to be silent, as so many Mormons seem to desire, that would be the ultimate result.
I'll be frank. I am sick and tired of believers trying to shame critics into silence.
Ok, I can see where you're coming from. You make a good point.
I see your efforts as being somewhat in vain. But that's just me. A few years ago you could have been one of many that might have claimed honors for providing reasons for me to slip into inactivity or leaving the church altogether. Fortunately, I had the patience and determination to continue in my personal quest. I'm not at any final destination yet, but I'm willing to stay on the path.
Regards,
MG
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MG -
You're saying that you understand Mormonism is not the ONE path to happiness. That also means that some people will be happier outside of Mormonism. I am a much happier person outside of Mormonism, and most exmormons I know (with the exception of those who have serious family issues due to their exodus) would agree with me. So, in my view, my efforts to provide information to those who seek it that allows them to consider that maybe, just maybe, the LDS church is not what it claims to be, are anything but vain. We only have one life to live, and if some people can have a more fulfilled life outside of Mormonism, I'm glad to help out.
Thanks for trying to see my point.
You're saying that you understand Mormonism is not the ONE path to happiness. That also means that some people will be happier outside of Mormonism. I am a much happier person outside of Mormonism, and most exmormons I know (with the exception of those who have serious family issues due to their exodus) would agree with me. So, in my view, my efforts to provide information to those who seek it that allows them to consider that maybe, just maybe, the LDS church is not what it claims to be, are anything but vain. We only have one life to live, and if some people can have a more fulfilled life outside of Mormonism, I'm glad to help out.
Thanks for trying to see my point.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
Miss Taken wrote:MG wroteAs I've mentioned here before, the church is the perfect laboratory for maximum development of the human soul.
That's your opinion MG, but what evidence do you have on which to base that very general assumption.
If a person is living in total obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ, they are going to be stretched to the limit. The demands of time, sacrifice, obedience to many commandments, money, study, covenant making, self-mastery/improvement, family obligations/duties, service,etc., are greater than the demands that function/operate within any other laboratory of human development that I am aware of. Could you name some other organizations that come close or surpass the church in all of these areas?
And yes, each one of these areas can be seen as opportunities for personal/family growth and happiness.
For countless billions who have lived, are living and will live, that statement however, is just not true.
Ummm...yeah. What's your point?
On all developmental levels aforementioned the church poses significant obstacles to real growth in my opinion. Socially, intellectually, spiritually and emotionally.
A muscle becomes stronger through opposition and forces that push and pull against it. The obstacles can be seen in the same way.
Your general statement comes across as naïve and arrogant...
You'll simply have to take my word for it...I'm not naïve, and I really don't think I'm arrogant. Be that as it may...
MG, I appreciate from your remarks that you recognise that the LDS community is not perfect on any level....and that you allude to this with your 'laboratory' use. I don't know though....Isn't it more like the blind leading the blind???
That hasn't been my experience. As I've been patient and have taken the time/effort to stick with the words of inspiration/guidance that have come from leaders and others that I've questioned and associated with, I wouldn't think it appropriate to use the word blind. Visually challenged at times? Maybe. <g>
A false history, and false idea, a false theology,....is still...well...false...
If it's false, yes. You got the proof? You sound quite sure of yourself. A little arrogant...maybe?
...and based on your logic of the necessity for imperfections in the organisation in order to produce the laboratory approach, then I would argue that life pure and simple gives you all that, without even the need for organised religion...
I don't believe that it does to the same extent. In part, because I don't think life, generally speaking, provides the same stretch and toning of the spiritual muscle, on a consistent/ongoing basis, as activity in the church does. Enduring to the end in righteousness is not an easy task. I can't think of another organization that has the same expectations of its members. Similar in some ways, yes. But not to the same level.
The church/gospel is in the business of training conditioned, finely tuned, top form, spiritual athletes. On the whole, I think the track record is pretty good. No pun intended...well...I take that back. <g>
Regards,
MG
beastie wrote:
...We only have one life to live...
Well, in the here and now anyway.
Thanks for trying to see my point.
I've consistently enjoyed the points that you've made along the way as I've read your stuff. Like I said, a few years ago I came close to taking the route/path that you have. I still meander a bit...and some times more than that. Got to check out the byways.
The Book of Mormon is keystone. If I was to think or come to the conclusion that the critics have absolutely trashed the Book of Mormon, I'd come to your next ex-mormon get together and have tons of fun!
The whole religion/god thing does sound kind of weird in many ways, doesn't it? I can see where you're coming from.
Regards,
MG
beastie wrote:Now imagine even more extreme examples - such as a gay person. Or a minority. Would you blithely assert that the LDS church is a "perfect laboratory" for individuals such as this?
Clark Pingree has found this to be the case, at least to some extent:
http://mormonstories.org/?p=338
Interesting panel discussion. Worth the listen.
Regards,
MG