Runtu wrote:..I think we're all familiar with the kinds of people the church is baptizing. Very few families, very few people with education. Mostly they are getting single people with financial and emotional problems. The church has always had its greatest success with people at a vulnerable state, such as a move or a death in the family, and now the church is getting the people who are chronically vulnerable.
That's my impression as well. On a side note, I imagine that the church's stat's are no different than the latest and newest MLM.
My son was one of the highest baptising missionaries in his European country's missions. Not one convert was born there. All were single immigrants. Most are innactive now.
I only baptised single people as well (in OZ). Only one remained. She married and gave birth to as many of the converts that fell away.
The Nehor wrote:If President Hinckley were to stand up tomorrow and report that they created a new Membership tracking system (sending Scratch into a paranoid frenzy about what it entails) and that under the new standards our membership numbers are down a few million do you really think there would be a large-scale exodus from the Church?
I think what you posit is not going to happen. But if it did, it wouldn't result in a few million being miscounted; it would result in about half of the church not being counted. And I think many members for whom the inflated numbers represent a reason to be active would have to find a new reason to stay active.
I think a far more devastating blow to the church would be to publish a true and accurate financial statement, including such things as who is awarded the lucrative contracts and who they are related to. And we all know that is never going to happen.
The Nehor wrote:If President Hinckley were to stand up tomorrow and report that they created a new Membership tracking system (sending Scratch into a paranoid frenzy about what it entails) and that under the new standards our membership numbers are down a few million do you really think there would be a large-scale exodus from the Church?
I think what you posit is not going to happen. But if it did, it wouldn't result in a few million being miscounted; it would result in about half of the church not being counted. And I think many members for whom the inflated numbers represent a reason to be active would have to find a new reason to stay active.
I think a far more devastating blow to the church would be to publish a true and accurate financial statement, including such things as who is awarded the lucrative contracts and who they are related to. And we all know that is never going to happen.
Interesting technique, switch accusations.
Also if anyone is a member of the Church based on how large it is, you might as well leave. My invite to you. It may grow more, it may shrink. It may fall to a few thousand. It may reach hundreds of millions. However if you're active due to the size of the Church you're involved in I recommend Catholicism or Islam or perhaps Hinduism. All have more practitioners. Safety in numbers......works every time.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
harmony wrote:I think a far more devastating blow to the church would be to publish a true and accurate financial statement, including such things as who is awarded the lucrative contracts and who they are related to. And we all know that is never going to happen.
Exactly, Harm.
I don't understand how this does not ring the war bell in everyone's ears.
Being secrective in nearly all aspects in what they do with the WIDOW's MITE is one of the most damning of all the current practices.
The Nehor wrote:Also if anyone is a member of the Church based on how large it is, you might as well leave. My invite to you. It may grow more, it may shrink. It may fall to a few thousand. It may reach hundreds of millions. However if you're active due to the size of the Church you're involved in I recommend Catholicism or Islam or perhaps Hinduism. All have more practitioners. Safety in numbers......works every time.
I'm sure Pres Hinckley would not agree with you. He doesn't care what reason people stay for; he just wants them to stay, so they have the opportunity to gain a testimony. You'd kick people to the curb because their testimony isn't the same as yours. I guess we know why you aren't the prophet, don't we?
harmony wrote:He doesn't care what reason people stay for; he just wants them to stay, so they have the opportunity to gain a testimony.
The corporation is a machine that depends on tithes and offerings to survive. Without a steady stream of income, it would disappear. Stressing the "growth of the church" (even padding numbers) is a sales technique, as is early commital to baptism.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
Also if anyone is a member of the Church based on how large it is, you might as well leave. My invite to you. It may grow more, it may shrink. It may fall to a few thousand. It may reach hundreds of millions. However if you're active due to the size of the Church you're involved in I recommend Catholicism or Islam or perhaps Hinduism. All have more practitioners. Safety in numbers......works every time.
How did she switch accusations? If you read her entire post, she was simply expanding on her initial point. She also agreed with you that membership numbers would affect some, but not all, members.
The fact remains, though, Nehor, that the rise in numbers of converts does influence the activity of some members.
As far as the bolded portion of your statement goes...shame on you. Once again, you are piously claiming to be a follower of Christ, and yet you are hardly acting like a worthwhile representative of him by your actions.
harmony wrote:He doesn't care what reason people stay for; he just wants them to stay, so they have the opportunity to gain a testimony.
The corporation is a machine that depends on tithes and offerings to survive. Without a steady stream of income, it would disappear. Stressing the "growth of the church" (even padding numbers) is a sales technique, as is early commital to baptism.
I may have forgotten but I cannot once remember as a Missionary teaching to anyone (including those I eventually baptized) how many members the Church had. You'd think this brilliant 'sales technique' would end up in the Discussions if it's such a big deal. I feel sorry for Wilford Woodruff now. His Mission to England must have been a bust......the Church had such small numbers.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
capt jack wrote:John Dehlin recently posted a videocast of a talk by Ted Lyon, former mission president in Chile, former MTC president in Chile, former head of the Spanish and Portugese Dept at BYU, and current temple president of the Santiago Chile temple.
Indeed he does. His experience in Chile sounds very much like mine in Bolivia, although I had never heard of the two-hour baptism. We did, however, have similarly abusive "numbers"-based practices in our mission, with the predictable results: 10% or so activity rates, which translate into empty chapels and temples--and lots of Mormons who don't even realize they're Mormons.
Also if anyone is a member of the Church based on how large it is, you might as well leave. My invite to you. It may grow more, it may shrink. It may fall to a few thousand. It may reach hundreds of millions. However if you're active due to the size of the Church you're involved in I recommend Catholicism or Islam or perhaps Hinduism. All have more practitioners. Safety in numbers......works every time.
How did she switch accusations? If you read her entire post, she was simply expanding on her initial point. She also agreed with you that membership numbers would affect some, but not all, members.
The fact remains, though, Nehor, that the rise in numbers of converts does influence the activity of some members.
As far as the bolded portion of your statement goes...shame on you. Once again, you are piously claiming to be a follower of Christ, and yet you are hardly acting like a worthwhile representative of him by your actions.
I don't claim it piously. :) I claim it with joy.
The fact remains? What fact? You're guessing here. Some people attend BYU. BYU's enrollment is high. People attend BYU because enrollment is high.
Huh? Those five people I helped bring into the Church in the last year thought I was worthwhile. Why the difference? Hmmmm....maybe it's the difference between active, believing Saints and borderline apostates.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo