200 year fad

[_Runtu]

I don't see the growth numbers as a sales technique for potential converts but rather as a self-validation and motivational tool for current members. Almost every conference I can remember has featured President Hinckley doing a congratulatory recitation of positive growth numbers for the church. The growth validates the church's mission, hence the focus on numbers in so many places, like my mission. Good growth numbers can also be a springboard for higher church office; most of us in our mission were convinced that our mission president was made a Seventy by virtue of his incredible baptism numbers (including one month of almost 1,000 baptisms).

But a numbers-focused church does not grow in healthy ways. As many have pointed out, the church is not baptizing the stable and productive, but rather the emotionally and financially needy.

[_MishMagnet]

I do not think the methods for tracking membership in the church are honest. Once you are baptized the only ways out are death, excommunication and resignation. I have a neighbor who was LDS for 6 months when she was 21 (she is now 38). She decided it wasn't for her and went on her merry way. She's now Charismatic. In my opinion it's pretty normal to bounce around between congregations and even denominations. My husbands family has done this for years. They find a congregation they enjoy and stay there for a while. They have attended Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian congregations. They do not identify with anything but "Christian."

I'm still counted in that LDS number. I do no believe in the church. I do not believe Joseph Smith was anything but a charismatic con-man. I have no intention of returning or subjecting my children to the LDS indoctrination. I have decided to not resign while my parents are living, however. This is something I'm doing for my parents only. Our friend of the family who converted to the LDS faith did not formally resign his membership in the Catholic church. Do you expect that the Catholic church is still counting him in their numbers? (I really don't know the answer to that but am questioning how other religions go about their membership numbers.)

[_The Nehor]

I don't see the growth numbers as a sales technique for potential converts but rather as a self-validation and motivational tool for current members. Almost every conference I can remember has featured President Hinckley doing a congratulatory recitation of positive growth numbers for the church. The growth validates the church's mission, hence the focus on numbers in so many places, like my mission. Good growth numbers can also be a springboard for higher church office; most of us in our mission were convinced that our mission president was made a Seventy by virtue of his incredible baptism numbers (including one month of almost 1,000 baptisms).

But a numbers-focused church does not grow in healthy ways. As many have pointed out, the church is not baptizing the stable and productive, but rather the emotionally and financially needy.

I would argue that everyone NEEDS the gospel so being needy is kind of a prerequisite. If I didn't need the gospel, I'd pass on the Church.

[_Yoda]

Huh? Those five people I helped bring into the Church in the last year thought I was worthwhile. Why the difference? Hmmmm....maybe it's the difference between active, believing Saints and borderline apostates.

Would you tell those five people you helped bring into the Church what you just told Harmony? Would you tell them that if they were active simply due to numbers that you personally "invite them to leave" and that they should look into Catholicism, Hinduism, or some other form of religion?

I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't, because these are obviously people you care about. I'm betting that you would, instead, invite them to stay, based on what you know regarding the gospel.

My question to you is this. Why are you, all of the sudden, being such a smart-ass? Yes, I'm picking on you because when you first joined the board, you were very sincere regarding your testimony. I respected that. You also have a decent knowledge of the gospel. I respected that, too.

You've developed an edge, Nehor, and it's an edge that doesn't further your cause at all. Frankly, you are portraying yourself in a much more hypocritical light.

[_The Nehor]

Huh? Those five people I helped bring into the Church in the last year thought I was worthwhile. Why the difference? Hmmmm....maybe it's the difference between active, believing Saints and borderline apostates.

Would you tell those five people you helped bring into the Church what you just told Harmony? Would you tell them that if they were active simply due to numbers that you personally "invite them to leave" and that they should look into Catholicism, Hinduism, or some other form of religion?

I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't, because these are obviously people you care about. I'm betting that you would, instead, invite them to stay, based on what you know regarding the gospel.

My question to you is this. Why are you, all of the sudden, being such a smart-ass? Yes, I'm picking on you because when you first joined the board, you were very sincere regarding your testimony. I respected that. You also have a decent knowledge of the gospel. I respected that, too.

You've developed an edge, Nehor, and it's an edge that doesn't further your cause at all. Frankly, you are portraying yourself in a much more hypocritical light.

Would I tell those five people that if they were staying in the Church due to the Church numbers that they should leave? Yeah, I would. None of them are though.

I've always been a smart-ass. I'm still sincere about my testimony.

I find it odd that you judge me as hypocritical. You've never met me. You have no idea what I do in my life and what standards I do and do not hold to. The edge I've acquired (only here by the way) comes from the relentless assaults. Any information I give is used to trap me. Any stories I share are dismissed. If they are spiritual they are lampooned or I'm accused of having suffered brain damage. I think I'm a masochist. If I want civil discourse, kindness, and friendly banter, I go to Singles FHE or a dance. I certainly wouldn't come here.

[_Runtu]

I would argue that everyone NEEDS the gospel so being needy is kind of a prerequisite. If I didn't need the gospel, I'd pass on the Church.

Obviously I disagree, but that's not what I was talking about. But I suspect you knew that already. :)

[_Yoda]

I find it odd that you judge me as hypocritical. You've never met me. You have no idea what I do in my life and what standards I do and do not hold to.

I'm not judging you, because, you're right. I don't know you "in real life". That is why my wording was as it was: "You are portraying yourself in a hypocritical light." And, in my opinion, you are. Take it for what it's worth, which is probably not much. However, I do belong to the same Church you do, and, believe it or not, I hold the same values dear, just as you do.

The edge I've acquired (only here by the way) comes from the relentless assaults.

As far as I can tell, the "relentless assaults" have come from two sources, PP and Merc. Considering that they tend to be the "peanut gallery" here that insults everyone who believes anything Mormon rather freely, I think it wise to consider the source. The people you have chosen to combat, such as Harmony, KA, and myself, in recent threads, have, at least on the threads I have participated, not relentlessly assaulted you. We have treated you with respect, even when we have differed in our opinions on certain issues.

Any stories I share are dismissed. If they are spiritual they are lampooned or I'm accused of having suffered brain damage.

Your spiritual experiences have not been dismissed or lampooned by me or by Harmony. Again, I think you need to consider your source, and deal with people individually.

[_Runtu]

I've always been a smart-ass. I'm still sincere about my testimony.

I tend to like smart-asses, but lately you've been one when you don't need to be a smart-ass.

I find it odd that you judge me as hypocritical. You've never met me. You have no idea what I do in my life and what standards I do and do not hold to. The edge I've acquired (only here by the way) comes from the relentless assaults.

What relentless assaults? As Liz said, from what I can see it's primarily Merc and Porter who have assaulted you in any way, and (no offense, Merc and Porter) no one takes them particularly seriously.

Any information I give is used to trap me. Any stories I share are dismissed. If they are spiritual they are lampooned or I'm accused of having suffered brain damage.

Who's doing all this?

I think I'm a masochist. If I want civil discourse, kindness, and friendly banter, I go to Singles FHE or a dance. I certainly wouldn't come here.

Depends on whom you talk to. I think that Liz and I would be interested in civil discourse, kindness, and friendly banter if it weren't followed by your being a smart ass.

[_asbestosman]

I think I'm a masochist.

I think you are too. Why you keep sharing spiritual experiences when we've been asked not to share certain ones (I think there's a quote by Elder Packer in preach my gospel about not sharing some special spritual experiences). I also wonder why you do it knowing what the reaction is (questions about drugs you may have taken). I thought you were here for entertainment and one-liners. Maybe a bit of trolling to see how people react to strange things. But you care too much to be a good troll. At the very least you seem to care how people judge you. A skilled troll like Merc or PP doesn't really care (or is better at hiding it).

[_Runtu]

I think you are too. Why you keep sharing spiritual experiences when we've been asked not to share certain ones (I think there's a quote by Elder Packer in preach my gospel about not sharing some special spritual experiences). I also wonder why you do it knowing what the reaction is (questions about drugs you may have taken). I thought you were here for entertainment and one-liners. Maybe a bit of trolling to see how people react to strange things. But you care too much to be a good troll. At the very least you seem to care how people judge you. A skilled troll like Merc or PP doesn't really care (or is better at hiding it).

That sounds like me, sort of. Maybe The Nehor is my evil twin (or vice versa). It doesn't pay to care too much here or on MADB. I don't mind The Nehor's sharing his spiritual experiences, and I hope people would respond a little more respectfully.