Todd Compton's Credo

[_truth dancer]

Hi MG...

If a person is living in total obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ, they are going to be stretched to the limit. The demands of time, sacrifice, obedience to many commandments, money, study, covenant making, self-mastery/improvement, family obligations/duties, service,etc., are greater than the demands that function/operate within any other laboratory of human development that I am aware of. Could you name some other organizations that come close or surpass the church in all of these areas?

I find this comment so very interesting.

In some ways it explains your perspective... I think! ;-)

If I'm reading you right, you are saying that the LDS church/organization requires more obedience/devotion than any other hence is the best "laboratory" there is? That the devotion/obedience that stretches one to their limit, demands time, sacrifice, money, service, etc. etc. is the best way for human development?

Is this close?

I see it so differently...

As an active/believing member I felt like all the focus on obedience, and all the unending, (for me harmful), demands actually thwarted my journey and distracted me from true holiness. The pounding into our brains of the need for obedience, following, conforming, do more, obey more, pay more, etc. etc. etc. FOR ME, left little or no room, (time, energy, life), for what is, in my opinion, the true spiritual journey, or living an authentic life of discovery and sacredness.

Funny how folks experience the world so differently!

~dancer~
To be clear, I understand others feel differently than do I... I'm speaking of my personal experience here... nothing more.

[_beastie]

If a person is living in total obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ, they are going to be stretched to the limit. The demands of time, sacrifice, obedience to many commandments, money, study, covenant making, self-mastery/improvement, family obligations/duties, service,etc., are greater than the demands that function/operate within any other laboratory of human development that I am aware of. Could you name some other organizations that come close or surpass the church in all of these areas?

And yes, each one of these areas can be seen as opportunities for personal/family growth and happiness.

Each of these areas can also be taken to an extreme that ends up invoking damage.

And, yes, I can think of other organizations that come close to or surpass the church in all these areas. Of course, some of them may define the obligations and duties differently than the LDS church, but if you're going to insist on the LDS church's definitions as the right ones, then the conversation is pointless from the get-go.

Think about Heaven's Gate, for example. The sacrifices of time, obedience, self-control, money were extraordinary. These were intelligent, educated people who were willing to sacrifice their genitalia, as well as their lives. Obviously you would agree that this was extreme and unhealthy. The whole trick is determining at what level "extreme and unhealthy" kicks in. I think that for many people, giving ten percent of their income is extreme and unhealthy, for example. If you struggle to pay your basic bills, it is irresponsible to donate ten percent of your income to an organization. The demands of certain callings, in my view, are extreme and unhealthy, and damaging to one's family. This is the reason most churches have a paid ministry. They recognize that certain functions in a religious organization are so time consuming that they constitute a full time job. I don't believe a family should have to sacrifice their husband and father to be a bishop to the ward, when that man already has a full time job. That man will functionally have two full time jobs and be an absent father and husband.

I'm not using these examples in the expectation that you will agree with me. I'm trying to demonstrate that there isn't a clear demarcation between demands that create opportunities for happiness and demands that become unhealthy and extreme. It's a judgment individuals make, so to assert that the LDS church is the best at creating those demands is simply insisting that everyone accept what you have determined to be the demarcation.

[_mentalgymnast]

If a person is living in total obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ, they are going to be stretched to the limit. The demands of time, sacrifice, obedience to many commandments, money, study, covenant making, self-mastery/improvement, family obligations/duties, service,etc., are greater than the demands that function/operate within any other laboratory of human development that I am aware of. Could you name some other organizations that come close or surpass the church in all of these areas?

And yes, each one of these areas can be seen as opportunities for personal/family growth and happiness.

Each of these areas can also be taken to an extreme that ends up invoking damage.

Of course that's true. Which fits within the laboratory definition of the church organization that I've laid out.

And, yes, I can think of other organizations that come close to or surpass the church in all these areas. Of course, some of them may define the obligations and duties differently than the LDS church, but if you're going to insist on the LDS church's definitions as the right ones, then the conversation is pointless from the get-go.

You're right. It all comes down to whether or not the gospel of Jesus Christ is the path to salvation/exaltation and whether or not the church is the organization which teaches/administers that true gospel. Each must decide for themselves.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Briefly, (smile) I do not believe there is any remote possibility that the God of the LDS tradition is reality.

Of course, the God of the LDS tradition has said otherwise. We have his own word on it. Who's word ought to receive greater credence? <smile>

Regards,
MG

[_truth dancer]

Of course, the God of the LDS tradition has said otherwise. We have his own word on it. Who's word ought to receive greater credence? <smile>

The world is filled with men (and the occasional woman), who claim God spoke to them.. Hundred of "Gods" say they are the real/true/only/most important God... according to these men anyway.

Who gets greater credence?

I suppose it depends what one likes? What one's family believed. The culture into which one was born.

My observation is that people create God, (or believe in the God), that reflects what they want, and how they believe the world works.

~dancer~

[_BishopRic]

Briefly, (smile) I do not believe there is any remote possibility that the God of the LDS tradition is reality.

Of course, the God of the LDS tradition has said otherwise. We have his own word on it. Who's word ought to receive greater credence? <smile>

Regards,
MG

Was that in "God, 1:1?" I missed that set of scriptures. Maybe Joseph's still working on the translation....

[_mentalgymnast]

Briefly, (smile) I do not believe there is any remote possibility that the God of the LDS tradition is reality.

Of course, the God of the LDS tradition has said otherwise. We have his own word on it. Who's word ought to receive greater credence? <smile>

Regards,
MG

Was that in "God, 1:1?" I missed that set of scriptures. Maybe Joseph's still working on the translation....

Well, that's where it starts. D&C 1:1., and then moves on through the section. Verse 24 pretty much lays it on the line. This section is not likely to go through any more translation changes by Joseph or anyone else.

17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;
18 And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—
19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither ctrust in the arm of flesh—
20 But that every man might aspeak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world;
21 That faith also might increase in the earth;
22 That mine everlasting acovenant might be established;
23 That the fulness of my gospel might be proclaimed by the weak and the simple unto the ends of the world, and before kings and rulers.
24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

My observation is that people create God, (or believe in the God), that reflects what they want, and how they believe the world works.

Or is it the other way around? God begets/creates people, knows them, gives them want they want or are capable/able of living/accepting, then lets them live/function within a portion/slice of truth along a spectrum, according to the way the world works within the environmental conditions/situation they live in.

Would you be able to tell for sure from the outside looking in which is actually the case?

Regards,
MG

[_BishopRic]

Briefly, (smile) I do not believe there is any remote possibility that the God of the LDS tradition is reality.

Of course, the God of the LDS tradition has said otherwise. We have his own word on it. Who's word ought to receive greater credence? <smile>

Regards,
MG

Was that in "God, 1:1?" I missed that set of scriptures. Maybe Joseph's still working on the translation....

Well, that's where it starts. D&C 1:1., and then moves on through the section. Verse 24 pretty much lays it on the line. This section is not likely to go through any more translation changes by Joseph or anyone else.

17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;
18 And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—
19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither ctrust in the arm of flesh—
20 But that every man might aspeak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world;
21 That faith also might increase in the earth;
22 That mine everlasting acovenant might be established;
23 That the fulness of my gospel might be proclaimed by the weak and the simple unto the ends of the world, and before kings and rulers.
24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

Regards,
MG

Excuse my ignorance, but I think it was Joseph Smith who wrote all that, was it not. Sure, he claimed to be writing for God -- as so many other millions have throughout the ages, with very conflicting advice -- but until I get that "God 1:1" straight from the horse's mouth, I'll assume these dudes are all making it up for their own purposes.

But thanks for trying.

[_mentalgymnast]

...until I get that "God 1:1" straight from the horse's mouth...

Do you mean a personal visit/appearance from God...to you?

If so, that would entail a lot of personal visits from God to a heck of a lot of people. And I thought is was a miraculous thing for Santa to get to all the homes of the good boys and girls to deliver presents on Christmas Eve. <g>

Regards,
MG