Runtu wrote:.... The "others" aren't there except by some really strained readings of the text. And even if we grant the presence of vast groups of people, how on earth did a small band of strangers gain political, economic, and religious dominance over them? It just doesn't make sense. Your suggestions are right on the money; but what we're getting instead are lame parallels and not much else.
Of course it makes sense - they were God's chosen people. With God, anything is possible. Duh!
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Small groups gain dominance all the time. Also I would have expected to find a much more motley collection of DNA if we did find the Nephites. There were fewer Nephites than there were Mulekites. Even assuming this is a national and not an ethnic designation who were the Mulekites. Some Jews and whoever brought them over. They could have even just stepped in among the numerous but decimated Jaredite survivors. Who were the Jaredites? The best guess is that they traveled East from the Middle East and then crossed the sea. It's quite possible they brought Siberian DNA over in addition to what may have come over the landbridge.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:Small groups gain dominance all the time.
Sure, but that wasn't my question.
Do these same small groups (that gained dominance), then disappear, and leave no trace that they were ever there, or ever held any type of dominance?
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
The Dude wrote:It's still true that if a small group of Viking-Nephites came to Mesoamerica around 600 BC, when it was already populated by powerful and widespread Siberian civilizations, we probably wouldn't be able to pick out the extant DNA even if we did know what markers would identify a Hebrew-Norseman of that period.
Strangely, the Nephite sagas say very little about the vast Siberian civilizations and culture who the Nephites lived "among", but they must have been there. We know this because of DNA as well as from archaeology. Let's go look in the Book of Mormon and see what clues we can find, clues that Joseph Smith himself never noticed. As they say, it is time to find Mesoamerica in the Book of Mormon instead of thinking we can find remnants of the Nephites in Mesoamerica. Some FARMS articles and John Sorenson can lead us through where a straighforward reading of the Book of Mormon is not clear about the indigenous people; all are Lamanites to the Book of Mormon writers, named descendants of Lehi, and possibly Mulek or an Ericson.
Don't try to find Nephites in the ancient world, don't try to find their DNA. It won't be there. You have a better bet by looking for the ancient world -- and Siberian DNA -- in the Book of Mormon. Strange but true.
The Nehor wrote:Small groups gain dominance all the time.
Sure, but that wasn't my question.
Do these same small groups (that gained dominance), then disappear, and leave no trace that they were ever there, or ever held any type of dominance?
We found out about the Hyskos Shepherd kings but it wasn't as easy as getting the rest of Egyptian history.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Runtu wrote:Exactly right. The "others" aren't there except by some really strained readings of the text. And even if we grant the presence of vast groups of people, how on earth did a small band of strangers gain political, economic, and religious dominance over them? It just doesn't make sense. Your suggestions are right on the money; but what we're getting instead are lame parallels and not much else.
You mean, the way Pizzaro and 180 Spaniards captured the Inca ruler, despite the latter's 80,000 strong army, and came within three decades or so to have completely destroyed the Inca empire?
So this isn't entirely unprecedented. However, the Spaniards had guns and horses, and Smallpox. And their conquests have been the stuff of major history ever since.
You'd certainly think, in the case of a conquest or other domination of a massive civilization of "others" by Lehites, that whatever lead to that domination would be worthy of at least a few lines of mention in their records, wouldn't you?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Blixa wrote:In many ways this is one of the best posts I've read here, lately.
Thanks!
The Nehor wrote:Who were the Jaredites? The best guess is that they traveled East from the Middle East and then crossed the sea. It's quite possible they brought Siberian DNA over in addition to what may have come over the landbridge.
Actually, Nehor, the research in the OP is set directly against the possibility that multiple migrations produced the dominant DNA markers of this hemisphere.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
The Dude wrote:Let's go look in the Book of Mormon and see what clues we can find, clues that Joseph Smith himself never noticed. As they say, it is time to find Mesoamerica in the Book of Mormon instead of thinking we can find remnants of the Nephites in Mesoamerica. Some FARMS articles and John Sorenson can lead us through where a straighforward reading of the Book of Mormon is not clear about the indigenous people; all are Lamanites to the Book of Mormon writers, named descendants of Lehi, and possibly Mulek or an Ericson.
Don't try to find Nephites in the ancient world, don't try to find their DNA. It won't be there. You have a better bet by looking for the ancient world -- and Siberian DNA -- in the Book of Mormon. Strange but true.
Will we see this in the next printing of the Doubleday Book of Mormon?
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