Coggins7 wrote:He rarely, if ever, will ask the doubter to question his doubt.
Wouldn't the more rational line of thought include the likelihood that the "doubt" has been examined? I feel like most who have had doubts have tried from several vantage points to find ways to resolve troubling issues, and some do so with success, and some do not. The first action though, is not to throw in the towel.
I don't expect to see same-sex marriage in Utah within my lifetime. - Scott Lloyd, Oct 23 2013
It is the age old question, "Who did sin, this man or his Gecko, that he lost his testimony"?
Many LDS members are unable to maintain relationships with other human beings, based soley on the level of their testimony. Its a clear sign that these members have a restricted social sphere in which they generally operate. People with a variety of friends, outside their own denomination, learn that intelligent and worthwhile individuals can be found from many backgrounds or belief systems. I think the unfortunate reality for many saints is that their communities cause them to victims of social incest.
And your evidence for this is exactly what?
Rather than toss out a CFR, I believe it would be more helpful if you were to mention what you agree with, what you don't. What were discussing here most likely has not been published, but you knew that.
I don't expect to see same-sex marriage in Utah within my lifetime. - Scott Lloyd, Oct 23 2013
It is a sad thing. But it is fact of human nature. You are part of a tribe with strong views. We are the Only True and Living Church....so when one who has been such a strong part of the tribe falters it is a threat to the other tribe members. If indeed the Church is what it claims they would have to see you in some negative light in order to preserve their own position. There has to be something wrong with you. If you conclude that the Church is wrong and they do not you are not in tune with the spirit, the spirit has left you, or you maybe are sinning thus do not have the spirit-SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOU. If not then they would have to explore the possibility that the Church is not what it claims, their tribe has led them wrong....this is very hard and uncomfortable for people to do.
Ahhh...now you feel better, don't you? You've sided with the underdog; with the oppressed, repressed, suppressed, and depressed. You've encouraged his doubt and disorientation, and through recourse to a really quite strained analogy of the Church as a "tribe". As you lay the blame on the Church's internal culture for his doubts (hoping, it seems, to disabuse him of any inkling that the doubts could, in fact be a function of psychological, emotional, and spiritual dynamics underway within himself that are not so much about the Church as about his individual response to it), you reaffirm the re-framing of your own retreat from the Gospel as a reaction against deficiencies inherent the Church (as over against the possibility that it is really a reaction to the requirements of the Church, but that is another story)
As I've not mentioned it up to this point, mms, this is not the place to be if you really want to work through your doubts and concerns in a positive and productive way.
This is not the place.[/quote
No Coggy old boy, I did not side with him to feel better nor to encourage doubt nor blame the Church. The tribe comment it a fact for any group or organization and in fact was not meant to be derogatory. Course you are so narrow minded that you see boogey men that are not there. Not does anything I feel or think about the Church have anything to do with this. In fact, I am actively involved in the Church, quite happy with my own spirituality and personal views of the Church but content to participate, hold a calling, and YES GASP!!! Even hold a temple recommend.
This may not be the place for MMS, I agree. But you poison is not for him either. You might stay his friend, but as noted, your main focus would be to persuade him back to what you think is true. You do not want to support him in his own journey and seeking even if it lands him elsewhere.
It is a sad thing. But it is fact of human nature. You are part of a tribe with strong views. We are the Only True and Living Church....so when one who has been such a strong part of the tribe falters it is a threat to the other tribe members. If indeed the Church is what it claims they would have to see you in some negative light in order to preserve their own position. There has to be something wrong with you. If you conclude that the Church is wrong and they do not you are not in tune with the spirit, the spirit has left you, or you maybe are sinning thus do not have the spirit-SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOU. If not then they would have to explore the possibility that the Church is not what it claims, their tribe has led them wrong....this is very hard and uncomfortable for people to do.
Ahhh...now you feel better, don't you? You've sided with the underdog; with the oppressed, repressed, suppressed, and depressed. You've encouraged his doubt and disorientation, and through recourse to a really quite strained analogy of the Church as a "tribe". As you lay the blame on the Church's internal culture for his doubts (hoping, it seems, to disabuse him of any inkling that the doubts could, in fact be a function of psychological, emotional, and spiritual dynamics underway within himself that are not so much about the Church as about his individual response to it), you reaffirm the re-framing of your own retreat from the Gospel as a reaction against deficiencies inherent the Church (as over against the possibility that it is really a reaction to the requirements of the Church, but that is another story)
As I've not mentioned it up to this point, mms, this is not the place to be if you really want to work through your doubts and concerns in a positive and productive way.
This is not the place.
Whoah . . . slow down there, Coggins. That is not AT ALL how I read that post. Man, some people are so absorbed in their "positions" around these message boards that it sometimes seems that they have lost any hope of being objective. Of course, that is my subjective opinion based on whatever "position" I may be thought to be taking at the moment.
I am not oppressed or repressed or whatever. In fact, with my education, the privileges afforded me by my professional achievements, an extremely healthy and happy marriage of many years, etc., I can hardly claim victim status (although, on some days throughout these relatively recent trials I seem to have tried). I do not see how Jason Bourne said anything to either encourage or discourage my doubts, but simply made some thoughtful points that seem to me not to have been taking any kind of "side", but to be stating the reality (as he sees it).
With respect to all, no one here or on MAD is going to have any real impact on me with regard to this struggle. Certainly, some arguments and positions will appeal to me and some will not, but I am not so fragile that the strongly worded positions and aggressive personalities will impact decisions so important to my life. If this were not the case, I would have left the Church already simply as a result of the utter dearth of any Christlike quality, and the overflowing abundance of bitterness and vitriol coming from Selek and Pahoran and their ilk at MAD. Thankfully, Selek and Pahoran (and some others) can claim to be faithful members of the Church while pushing people away from it on a daily basis, and I think no more or less of the truthfulness claims of the Church as a result.
That is right MMS. You understand my points and see nothing of the conspiracy that Coggy sees because you are rational, and coggy is not.
The post was aimed at Jason, not you. I don't know how you feel about things, and don't pretend to. Jason's foray into solidarity with those who have doubts about the Church is just standard for him. He rarely, if ever, will ask the doubter to question his doubt.
Well you certainly offer no solidarity to me dude.
But here you go. MMS, you should explore all sides of the issues that are bothering you. Read, pray, search and ponder. Don't be quick to chuck it all. I have man doubts and even have concluded some things which are not standard orthodox LDS positions. Yet I still want to and choose to worship God and Jesus Christ through the LDS Church and as an LDS person because for me it is still the best place to worship. And I want to worship. Beware of extermists on either side of the issues and look to sources that are as unbiased as possible though that is almost impossible. I recommend Bushman's books for historical issues about Joseph. I recommend John Dehlin's web site Mormon Stories. John interview lots of people from many sides of the fence. John may be liberal on LDS things but is still a believer. Blake Ostler is good to and has a web site with some good stuff. He is more of a philosopher and explores deep Mormon theological issues but has some "not traditional" ideas that set well with me personally. His stuff can be deep. Some FARMS stuff is good but it also can be very polemical because of the varying authors that can submit articles.
Religion is complex and for me there is no clear cut and dry answers. But there is much to value in the LDS Church even though there is much that poses difficult problems. I wish you the best in your search. May God lead you true.
The problem with viewing the box from the outside is that unless the box is open you never see what is inside. All you see is a big brown thing with 'this side up' and 'fragile' on it. Since your metaphor made no sense to me I decided to respond with one of my own. Do you like?
The ability to "think outside the box" is a common business metaphor. The fact that you don't understand it indicates to me that you either must be unemployed, or not working in the private sector.
How's this for clarification? Quit being such a smart-ass! Acting in the manner you have been acting on this thread and others as of late, certainly doesn't set the type of Christ-like example that you so piously seem to feel you are setting.
The problem with viewing the box from the outside is that unless the box is open you never see what is inside. All you see is a big brown thing with 'this side up' and 'fragile' on it. Since your metaphor made no sense to me I decided to respond with one of my own. Do you like?
The ability to "think outside the box" is a common business metaphor. The fact that you don't understand it indicates to me that you either must be unemployed, or not working in the private sector.
How's this for clarification? Quit being such a smart-ass! Acting in the manner you have been acting on this thread and others as of late, certainly doesn't set the type of Christ-like example that you so piously seem to feel you are setting.
I have noticed Nehor is trying to be funny, failing a lot at that, and appearing to be more jerky, and not the beef type.
The post was aimed at Jason, not you. I don't know how you feel about things, and don't pretend to. Jason's foray into solidarity with those who have doubts about the Church is just standard for him. He rarely, if ever, will ask the doubter to question his doubt.
Well you certainly offer no solidarity to me dude.
But here you go. MMS, you should explore all sides of the issues that are bothering you. Read, pray, search and ponder. Don't be quick to chuck it all. I have many doubts and even have concluded some things which are not standard orthodox LDS positions. Yet I still want to and choose to worship God and Jesus Christ through the LDS Church and as an LDS person because for me it is still the best place to worship. And I want to worship. Beware of extremists on either side of the issues and look to sources that are as unbiased as possible though that is almost impossible. I recommend Bushman's books for historical issues about Joseph. I recommend John Dehlin's web site Mormon Stories. John interview lots of people from many sides of the fence. John may be liberal on LDS things but is still a believer. Blake Ostler is good to and has a web site with some good stuff. He is more of a philosopher and explores deep Mormon theological issues but has some "not traditional" ideas that set well with me personally. His stuff can be deep. Some FARMS stuff is good but it also can be very polemical because of the varying authors that can submit articles.
Religion is complex and for me there is no clear cut and dry answers. But there is much to value in the LDS Church even though there is much that poses difficult problems. I wish you the best in your search. May God lead you true.
I see Mr. Loud Mouth has no comments to what I suggest above. Of course I am sure what I wrote will not do for Coggins and his ultra uber approach to anything that varies one degree from what he of course knows.
Coggins7 wrote:Well, too bad I wasn't that friend, as we'd still be friends regardless. Indeed, I would consider it incumbent upon me to strengthen that friendship even further given the seriousness with which I take the Gospel and the need to share it and work through times of doubt or questioning within the context of true friendship, which is, without doubt, the best context within which to work.
So sorry your friend is behaving in this manner. Actually, I'd like to hear his side of it as well, as hasty judgments after hearing only one side of a complex issue is ill advised.
In other words, Coggins would remain your "friend," albeit one with a hidden agenda. He won't value you for who you are, but for what he wants you to be. His continuing devotion to you will not be genuine but rather an instrument to his agenda: to bring you back into the fold. Friendship to him is a means to an end, not anything possessing inherent value.
With friends like those . . .
Actually, as off the wall as Coggins can be at times, I have to defend him here. I think you're putting words in his mouth. Where did Coggins say that the friendship would become a means to an end? He didn't. He states that "within the context of true friendship" he would help his friend work through his/her doubts. It sounds to me like Coggins is willing to accept his friend for who he is, but because the Gospel is a meaningful part of his life, he feels the need to become an even closer friend in a time of crisis. Isn't that what friends should do?
I understand where you are coming from. Believe me, I have dealt with my share of "fair weather Mormon friends". I just didn't sense that this was where Coggins was coming from.
I suppose we'll have to let Coggins answer that for himself.